Q: Prof. Ariel Feldstein, as a resident of Kibbutz Mefalsim, who survived the events in October, I assume you are still picking up the pieces.
"We are still reeling and the mind begins to process what we could process that day. Throughout that morning, I was very much in denial of the events; I couldn't believe it was possible and thought it must be a false report. In the summer before, I taught a course called 'Kibbutz, Construction, Demolition, Assembly,' and as part of it, I toured with the students in the border kibbutzim. One of the kibbutz speakers guided us to the closest observation point to Gaza and explained to us that the fence is impenetrable - 14 stories deep into the ground, five above. He added that even if there were a breach in the fence, there is a buffer area followed by another fence, so there is no chance that even a fly would pass the fence. People in the border area felt a sense of security, so the dissonance after the Black Sabbath is so great."
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Q: Today, such a tour to the fence would look completely different. It seems that Gaza will never return to what it was.
"Gaza is a black hole that absorbs every mass into it. Not for nothing did Egypt hesitate to embrace it. I agree with the assumption that if Gaza does not return to what it was before Hamas took over, it will be impossible to create a decent life in the border area. In the eulogy of Moshe Dayan, after the murder of Roi Rotberg from Nahשl Oz by Palestinians from Gaza, he said, 'Let us not be deterred from seeing the accompanying vengeance that fills the lives of hundreds of thousands of Arabs sitting around us and waiting for the moment when their hand can reach our blood. Let us not turn our eyes away, lest our hands weaken. This is the destiny of our generation. This is the choice of our lives – to be ready and armed... or that our lives will be cut off if our grip on the sword weakens.'
"Since the price of blood is so heavy, and since the State of Israel, I hope, is interested in rebuilding the kibbutzim that were attacked on October 7, the question arises: What is the meaning of creating a situation where people can return and live, in a situation that is 95% paradise and 5% hell. It's an important question that is difficult to answer."
Q: Perhaps, after all, we will try to answer it. Over the years, there have been attempts to strengthen that paradise, while building connections with Gaza. Does history teach us that we have approached creating a sane reality in the region?
"Over the years, attempts have been made to build connections with Gaza. Every morning when I went to work, I saw the Gazan laborers standing at bus stations, waiting for contractors to come and pick them up for construction sites. With a wage of 350-300 shekels a day, when a falafel meal in Gaza costs two shekels, a Gazan worker can feed approximately 20 people a day.
"Beyond that, in 2004, I was involved in an initiative by the State Department to establish a college dedicated to conflict resolution and settlement, with two campuses in Gaza and Israel, from which both Israeli, Gazan, and international students could enter from both sides.
"This initiative was supposed to be renewed this time, alongside another international initiative for a solar heating system that will provide electricity to Gaza and Israel, in addition to establishing an industrial zone that would employ at least 50,000 workers from Gaza in Israeli territory."
Q: But the US also viewed such initiatives as unrealistic.
"But on the Israeli side, there has always been an attempt to create a distinction between Gazans and Hamas. Today, this is a much more difficult task, and perhaps not possible at all. We cannot decide who rules Gaza. Like any dictatorship, Hamas also rose to power in democratic elections. Once, I accepted the perspective that said there are Hamas and there are Gazans. After the events of October 7, it is difficult to say that. It has been proved in reality that Hamas cannot reconcile with the existence of the State of Israel and a Jewish entity in the Middle East, and the initiatives I spoke about are likely not to materialize."
Q: The US has until recently had the view that if Hamas rule crumbled and Israel took control of Gaza, we would have faced a violent backlash from the residents of the Strip. Do you agree?
"The American assessments are interesting. Rationally, we cannot change absolute perceptions in Gaza, and we cannot control Gaza. We've already been through this saga before. Gaza first appeared in the story of Noah, and since the biblical flood, Gaza has been the black hole of the Middle East. Alexander the Great besieged it, and eventually destroyed it, as did our Alexander Jannaeus. Historically, it is truly a hole that sucks in anyone who comes near it. If we control it, the blood price we will pay will be heavy. Etched in my mind is the picture from the deadly attack on the border with Egypt, when IDF soldiers crawled on all fours looking for body parts. And not only that but beyond that – we will have to absorb 2.5 million people and worry about what they will eat in the morning. Not realistic
Q: Netanyahu said that Gaza must be demilitarized in the day after Hamas and that only the IDF can ensure such demilitarization. It sounds like in his eyes this is realistic
"From a historical perspective, it will not be possible to implement the demilitarization of the Strip and IDF control of this area in practice. This would come at a heavy price that neither the State of Israel nor Israeli society could pay over time. This has nothing to do with any particular political opinion. The time has come to look at reality rationally and courageously. Israel wants to think that in the global chess game, it is on the row of the queen and king, but we are on the row of pawns, and this is not a game that benefits us. Therefore, we need international recognition, without which we will not be able to implement decisions and steps. Every step we take, as Herzl said in the past, needs to gain international recognition."
Q: So who will enter the vacuum?
"This is exactly the question that arose at the end of Operation Sinai in March '57. When the UN told Ben Gurion that its forces would enter the strip and guard it as a demilitarized zone, I don't think he deluded himself that the UN would succeed in doing so. And when the UN realized it was not up to the job the Egyptian army entered, having never annexed the Gaza Strip.
Q: Egypt didn't want Gaza in the past, and it doesn't want it today either. Why is that?
From Egypt's point of view, Gaza poses a domestic Egyptian threat, for two reasons: First, they are afraid they will not be able to close the Rafah crossing. Second, President Abdel Fattah El-Sisi is going into elections he fears, both because of the economic situation in the country and because of his concern that the Muslim Brotherhood will grow stronger, alongside anti-Egyptian and anti-Israeli forces. Gaza will only add to his pile of problems. This reminds me of Levi Eshkol saying at a '67 government meeting: 'I want Gaza, but not her dowry'. In other words, he wants Gaza without Gazans, and at that time there were only 600,000 of them, not as many as today."
Q: How was this resolved at the time?
"Two ideas came up in cabinet meetings: Transferring the Gazans to Sinai, a scenario that did not happen out of fear that the world would see this as population transfer. Another idea was to transfer some of Gaza's residents to the West Bank. This was not rational, because it would greatly increase the human mass in the West Bank. So we're stuck, and I don't envy the decision-makers of the State of Israel. I think the only solution, which may sound fanciful, is to establish a quartet of countries, and it's no coincidence that Tony Blair's name has already come up."
Q: Is this a harbinger of good news?
"I am not optimistic about a solution based on building an international policing force. In today's global reality – and we have seen an example of this in the war in Ukraine – European countries like Britain and Germany would have done anything except send a single soldier to set foot on Ukrainian soil. With the billions Ukraine has received, it can build a colony on Mars, but not one soldier was sent there. So it's hard for me to believe that American or European soldiers will be sent to the Gaza Strip. On the other hand, the Americans and Europeans have no interest in eliminating the Palestinian Authority."
Q: Is that why European leaders have come here, some even sending ships to the area?
"I asked myself why they came. In my opinion, the reason is simple: They realized that what happens here has a direct impact on what happens in the complicated relationship with the Muslim minorities in various European countries. They realized this was also their hour of reckoning. In Britain, 300,000 Palestinians demonstrated in London and faced the far Right, which threatens British democracy. This is happening in France, Germany, and Italy.
"The leadership of the free world has come here out of concern for what is happening here, but also out of concern for their domestic situation. So we got credit, but it is time-bound because those countries will not be able to tolerate the fighting over time. The world is sensitive to the Palestinian issue, and despite the heavy toll we have had to pay – Israel is still perceived as strong in the Middle East. Gaza is a corridor. If the civilian population is harmed there, Europe will have to condemn and ask for the fighting to stop. The picture of victory we have painted for ourselves is the defeat of Hamas. And so it is important to ask what will happen the day after.
"Putin has been floundering for two years in the Ukrainian quagmire, but it's almost not in the discourse anymore, certainly doesn't open news broadcasts around the world. I fear that we'll get into such a loop."
Q: You mentioned earlier that the US and Europe have no real interest in eliminating the Palestinian Authority. Having PA in place of Hamas in Gaza – is that a bad idea? The name of Mohammed Dahlan has come up as a candidate.
"The point is that when there's a void, a new force comes in. We also know that when one extreme force leaves, the new force may end up being more extreme. We are the 'Villa in the Jungle it would be too presumptuous to think we can succeed in creating a sane geopolitical reality in Gaza. It's hard for me to believe."
Q: From a broader perspective, do you think the events of October 7 will be a new milestone in the history of Zionism?
"An interesting question. As a Zionism scholar, I would explain to my students how the 'Storms in the Negev' events, the name given to the pogroms in which about 40 Jews were murdered between April 1881 and May 1882 in the southwestern part of the Russian Empire, represented a turning point in the history of the Jewish people. In other words, all those points that connected in 1881-2 led to the birth of Zionism. This is not a simple issue, much like the events of October 7.
"That Black Shabbat is a defining event in the history of the Zionist enterprise and the state of Israel for three reasons: First, for the first time in our 75 years of existence, more than a thousand citizens were murdered. This is an enormous number, and as a society, we have not even begun to grapple with this bereavement."
"Second, the issue of leadership. The army is a professional advisory body, while decisions are made by the government of Israel. Therefore, the issue of leadership is a fundamental issue that will yet bring about the awakening of Israeli society. I hope that as a people, and as a society, we will be able to declare to the leadership that we are not interested in schism and division, but in cohesion. We want solidarity and we are committed to it. Otherwise, there is no point, and you can hang up a 'country for sale' sign.
"Third, today national resilience and cohesion are inspiring, but there is no doubt that Israeli society needs to ask itself where it is headed. It is reasonable to assume that the Zionist enterprise will move up a level. Just as public protest brought the Israeli flag and the Declaration of Independence back into the discourse, I assume that so too Zionism will return to the discourse. The kibbutzim in the Gaza area that paid the heaviest price in blood, performed a Zionist act. And they will yet perform a Zionist act because I hear people from the kibbutzim who intend to return to their homes. That is Zionism. Some Israeli society did not want to use the term, Zionism, because it is perceived as having a political orientation. But Zionism will return to the discourse because we have no other tribal campfire around which we can unite."
Q: You sound optimistic.
"I am optimistic, we have no other choice. A few months ago the question arose whether we are heading towards a third destruction. As a historian, I think we are not at a point of disintegration, we are at a point of reassembly and rebuilding."
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