WARSAW – The trilateral meeting between the presidents of Israel, Germany, and Poland – Isaac Herzog, Frank-Walter Steinmeier, and Andrzej Duda – to mark the 80th anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising is designed to send a message of reconciliation between the three nations regarding the animosities over World War II that have clouded relations in recent years. Herzog's arrival in Warsaw is supposed to complete the reconciliation process between Israel and Poland, which has accelerated in the wake of the Ukraine war. This presidential visit was made possible in part after the remaining stumbling block had been removed: the issue of Israeli high school students visiting Nazideath camps. The two presidents have played a key role in that thaw, and this week, on the even to the anniversary of the Jewish uprising against the Nazi occupiers, Duda – a friend of the Jewish people and Israel – granted Israel Hayom an exclusive interview where he discussed the future of the ties, as well as their past. The interview was conducted at the presidential palace in the Polish capital.
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Q: What is the historical significance of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising for Poland today?
"First, we feel this is part of our shared history. This was an uprising of the Polish Jews in World War II. In Israel, this is of course an important historical event in Jewish history. The Germans imprisoned the Jews in the Ghetto, and the younger residents decided to revolt and took up arms and fought. Most were killed because they had no real chance to survive. They showed their immense heroism through their actions. Today, in Israel, the uprising is part of the national narrative but this is also an important part of Polish history during the war period. We see it as our own uprising. I will say that it was a Polish uprising because the fighters were Jewish Poles, citizens of Poland. As such, they were part of Polish history. Many of them hailed from the Polish intelligentsia; they were educated people from a variety of occupations. The Germans are the ones who separated these Polish Jews from the greater Polish society. They put a mark of Cain on them. When the Germans occupied Poland, they destroyed the Polish state and forced the Jews to wear a yellow star. This is how they started the separation between them and the rest of Polish society."
Q: To what degree did the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising serve as an inspiration for the Warsaw Uprising about a year later on August 1, 1944?
"The two uprisings were intertwined. There were two uprisings in Warsaw, and people often conflate the two. The Warsaw Uprising that broke out on August 1, 1944, had a wider scope. It took place all over the city. But the results of both uprisings were pretty similar and that is indeed very symbolic: After the ghetto uprising the Nazis decided to raze it to the ground. They turned into a sea of rubble. After the Warsaw Uprising was suppressed, the Germans began under Hitler's orders to destroy the entire city. He instructed them not to leave even one brick in place. Warsaw shared the same fate as the ghetto; the ghetto's survivors found a safe haven with their fellow Poles in Warsaw. When the Warsaw Uprising began many of them joined the combat against the Germans. Their decision to help the fighting has a big symbolic significance."
Q: How has President Isaac Herzog's presence at the anniversary events normalized relations once again between the two sides?
"It is a very positive thing to have the president of Israel arrive in Poland to take part in the commemoration events. The reason for that is because we can say that this was a joint uprising for both Poland and Israel. It is a very positive thing that the two countries have both sought to honor the memory of the heroes of the ghetto uprising. It is very good that both sides want to bow their heads and pay their respects for the heroism of the uprising's fighters."
Q: Have we reached a point where we can say that history can unite us rather than divide us?
"It is important to understand that before the war Poland was a big country where millions of people lived together. Poles, Jews, other ethnicities. All were citizens of the Polish republic. After Poland won independence in 1918, those groups fought several times to preserve it. If you visit the cemeteries where Polish soldiers who fought for independence against the Soviets in 1920 are buried, you will notice crosses, as well as Stars of Davids. You will also see crescents because Tatars also fought for Poland. The number of graves with crosses is obviously the largest and the second largest is the group of Stars of David. All of them mark the graves of soldiers of the Polish military. That multi-ethnic society comprised the Polish military in 1939 that fought the German invaders. It included both non-Jewish Poles and Jews. That is why many of the insurgents in the Ghetto knew how to take up arms. They got their combat experience in the Polish military. Many Jewish Poles fought in Anders' Army that fought on behalf of Poland alongside the Allies. Many of the troops in that army later took part in the founding of the state of Israel and fought for it. In Israel's early years, the Polish language was very common in the Knesset. That is why I speak of joint history and that is why the presence of Israel's president in the commemoration events is very important. For me, the relations between the two countries, including the diplomatic ties, should be the natural state of affairs and self-evident."
Q: Why was Germany's president invited?
"President Steinmeier, whom I know well, wanted to be part of this event. He believes that it is his duty as the president of the nation that perpetrated the crimes to be here and pay his respects to those who perished in the uprising. I hope that his presence will represent peace, forgiveness, and the desire for coexistence between our nations forever."
Q: Is the trilateral meeting an opportunity to discuss a collaborative German-Israeli-Polish framework to deal with the past and the memory? For example, to expand the tours of high school students to Germany rather than have them visit only Poland?
"It will be a very positive thing if the programs for those tours include an itinerary that reflects the history of the Holocaust. In view of that, it would be a good thing that the tours begin near Berlin, in Wannsee, where the senior Nazi leadership decided on implementing the "Final Solution." Nazism was born in Germany, that is where the Kristallnacht pogrom took place and that is where the roots of the Holocaust can be found. That is where the first concentration camps were created. The Germans began setting up the concentration and death camps in Poland only after they occupied our land and annexed it to the Reich by creating the Generalgouvernement. That is how they set up the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp, which has a German name. This is a camp that symbolizes the Holocaust for many Jews, especially younger ones. It was a German camp. That is why the pilgrimage to those death sites should begin in Germany; that is where the Holocaust was devised; from there it should continue to contemporary Poland, which was then occupied by Germany.
"However, we want that when Israelis visit Poland today, that they would not be limited to the years where the Nazis carried out the Holocaust and the genocide of the Jewish nation. We want them to see that the presence of Jews in Poland and the coexistence between the Poles and the Jews continued for a period of 1000 years. We want them to see with their own eyes how many elements of Jewish culture were incorporated into modern-day Polish culture, and how the two cultures were intertwined for 1000 years, and how much our two nations share. I want them to hear how many words from their language were adopted by the Polish language."
Q: In that context, it was recently reported that Poland has supposedly forced Israel, as part of the agreement to renew the tours, to include sites that commemorate Poles who murdered Jews. Is that so?
"I heard about that report and about a statement by a well-known politician who served in the previous government in Israel and who has a very well-known hostile stance toward Poland and the Poles. Let me put it this way: For us, he is a habitual liar. He has a vested political interest in dividing between our two nations and countries. I have no qualms saying that: He is hurting the vital interests of Israel. I will explain why: Poland has always been a country that has a friendly stance toward Israel. On many occasions, we have defended Israel in international bodies. Even when the EU issued condemnations against Israeli policy, Poland did not. For many decades we have treated Israel with great friendliness. This has manifested itself in certain areas that I cannot elaborate on. Those who try to sabotage the relations between Poland and Israel try to undermine Israeli interests, including the security interests. This is what I have to say on this matter."
Q: You don't want to mention that politician by name?
"Everyone knows who I am talking about."
Q: Is the 5-year crisis that the two countries had in their relations over?
"In recent years we have seen a drop in the intensity of Polish-Israeli relations. It would be fair to say that this is due to the "success" of the person talked about. That person hurt the Polish people and humiliated them. We believe there is no reason to take part in such dialogue and that is why we chose to stay silent. We reached a conclusion that if the Israeli government did not need us as a friend then we cannot be friends. However, we still hope that Israel wants to have a friend in this part of Europe that is not indifferent to it. Very simple. For that reason, the president's visit and the call I had with him are good signs of friendship being renewed."
Q: What are the lessons that can be learned from this crisis to ensure it never returns?
"First, we must learn to look at history through an objective prism. No one knows how much Jewish blood runs in their arteries; after 1,000 years, there is a big intertwining. We, the Poles, also suffered a lot as a nation and society in World War II. Some six million Polish citizens were murdered in the war, including more than three million Jewish Poles. And yes, the other three million were not Jews. Non-Jewish Poles were also murdered by the Nazis. We fought for our independence. It is important to remember that anyone helping Jews in the occupied Polish territories was subject to a death sentence. A death sentence. This is a fact, and everyone who examines the relationship between Poles and Jews during that period must be aware of it. Many Poles and their families were killed by Germans because they had helped Jews. Those people are commemorated in various places in Poland. Everyone knows that in Yad Vashem the number of trees planted in memory of the Polish Righteous Among the Nations is the greatest. There is just no comparison between the Righteous Among the Nations from Western Europe to the Polish ones. Here, the punishment for helping Jews was not imprisonment but death. Like the Ulma family: a couple and their children, who were shot to death on the spot because they had helped Jews. They paid with their lives and their children's lives for helping their Jewish neighbors. Everyone was subject to murder: Jews and Poles alike. The situation was bad; inconceivable.
"I keep saying time and again: There were various types of people in Poland during the war, just like in every other society. There was the group of heroes who helped the Jews while putting their lives on the line, and many of them have yet to be recognized for their acts. Then there was the frightened majority who were scared for their lives and the lives of their loved ones and just wanted to survive. And there were also the wicked ones, who reported on Jews and handed them over to the Germans, as well as some who took part in the crimes. Just like in every society. But if you look at Polish society as a whole, there were not a lot of people in the latter group. We, of course, condemn them in the strongest terms. Today they would not have found a place in our society. By the way, many of them were executed by the Polish Underground during the war, like the police officer who reported on the Ulma family to the Germans. He was shot and killed by the Polish Underground State. This was the complicated history of the war. We must remember this complexity. No official Polish agency or institution collaborated with the Nazis. In fact, the opposite is true: The underground worked with the exiled government and created Żegota, a body whose purpose was to save Jews. That is why it hurts us to hear the accusations against the Polish people from irresponsible individuals in Israel and other places."
Q: Looking into the future, when will a new ambassador be appointed in Israel?
"Those in charge of the process are now at the phase of setting up the appointment of the relevant individual."
Q: Now that Herzog is visiting, will you visit Israel?
"We have been dealing with a war in our region; a war that Russia started in Ukraine. My main mission is to protect Poland's security. Every visit I make abroad focuses on security matters. If the political circumstances allow, there will be a presidential visit to Israel. Keep in mind that I have already held an official visit to Israel as president of Poland.
Q: Israel will mark 75 years of independence next week. Do you have a message to convey to Israelis on this occasion?
"I congratulate Israel and its citizens for this very important and significant day, especially considering the fact that over the past 75 years, Israel has endured many difficult moments but pulled through. Poland feels that it is a friend of Israel, also because many people of Polish descent took part in its founding. These were Polish Jews and we highly value their contribution to the development of Poland in various fields: the sciences, the military, and day-to-day life. I wish Israel and the Israelis peace and calm and that the tough experiences of the past 75 years won't repeat."
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