"If the judicial reform legislation effort continues, it will be a disaster," State Party Chairman Benny Gantz warns in an interview with Israel Hayom. "Blood may spill on the streets; I fear a civil war," the former defense minister warns, even as his representatives continue to seek compromise with the government in the talks being held under the auspices of President Isaac Herzog.
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Gantz blames Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for undermining Israel's vital interests: security, diplomacy, the economy, and above all – the fraying of our social fabric. He believes that it is not too late to undo the chasm, but stresses that "if all sides arrive at the talks and engage in good faith, we would be able to strike out terms that could guarantee our future."
He dismisses the Coalition's claims that the judicial reform would not undermine democracy. "Things might not change much over the course of a year, but in the long run things will just collapse. When you go along the wrong trajectory for so many years, you can't predict what will happen to the economy, education, legal matters and the people serving in the military." He says that the damage will be felt in security as well. "Today, we are unmatched in terms of our regional strength, but in the long run, there could be a problem. That is why Netanyahu should stop everything and get our house in order now."
Gantz visited the Ir David (City of David) archaeological site of the |Temple Mount this week, where he conducted the interview. The guide, James, told him that Israel's ancient kingdoms lasted some 75 years. "I hope our end will be better, but I'm truly concerned," Gantz admits. "There are two options: A terrible constitutional crisis where what we see intensifies and impacts security, the economy, and society – or that we reach some agreement,and that will be a seminal moment for the next 75 years. I hope we succeed because when all is said and done, we have to stay together."
Q: What is happening is the exact opposite.
"That is very troubling, and that is why I called for talks right from the get-go. It was clear to me that this is a critical matter that deals with the very character of who we are for years to come. Such a thing should not be determined in a rush. Netanyahu could have started his term with security, including here at home, and then continued to pass a state budget and only then move on to judicial reform. But Likud could not wait."
Q: Why?
Because he is not really able to control them. All the second fiddles, each on their own account, are trying to promote their personal or factional agendas or some ideological-conceptual ideal. But ultimately the buck stops with Netanyahu. He was elected by the majority of the people, he has 64 seats in parliament and he is the prime minister. The onus is on him, not on anyone else."
Q: So why hasn't he put his house in order?
"You would have to ask him. I am not a pundit; I am a politician and believe I am a statesman. I see what Israel needs: It needs a prime minister who looks into the future and with a wide view; someone who would do a deep dive into matters rather than handle the here and now at any given moment. That is not what we have in the current government, where all the radical elements are pulling it in their direction. That is not a good situation for the State of Israel."
Q: Netanyahu is not a negotiating partner?
"I am not going to enter his government and will not be part of his government, but I am going to pursue democratic understandings and will always provide backing on national security when it is possible. I don't think Netayahu wishes Israel ill, but his personal priorities have adversely affected his national priorities, and as a result he has made a series of mistakes at the helm of the ship, and I hope they could be fixed."
Q: You say one thing and then the exact opposite. On the one hand, he doesn't wish us ill but on the other hand, his actions have been damaging to the country.
"We have all gotten to know Netanyahu for the past 30 years. I got to know him when I was a senior officer in the IDF in various positions, I was chief of staff and defense minister under his watch. I believe he is very much part of this land, his family paid a terrible price under heroic circumstances that we all remember fondly. But something in his operating system has gone wrong; the country needs to be led by someone who is responsible and moderate, not a radical."
Q: I am trying to understand where this is all heading. How can he fix what you say needs fixing if you are unwilling to enter his Coalition and take part in this effort?
"Netanyahu needs to first of all stop being at the mercy of the radicals. It's not like they have any other government they can join. He has more political power than he is willing to let on. I have been fighting for my cause and explaining my views, which are complicated because on some issues I tend to be more conservative and on other issues I am liberal. I am trying to build an alternative, and when the rubber hits the road on election day we will try to get things right."
Q: So why not just replace the radicals in the government by having you enter it?
"I am not part of the radical turf this government is on. I cannot be part of the radical judicial measures led by Simcha Rotman and Yariv Levin, or cooperate with the craziness of Bezalel Smotrich at the Defense Ministry. I am not someone who would call for the wiping out of a village. Netanyahu is pursuing measures that could be related to his personal fortunes [relating to his ongoing trial], and that is why he is allowing them to act like they do. I will have no part in this government."
Q: Maybe it is just because you feel that you have been had in the previous unity government with Netanyahu and you fear they will do this to you all over again?
"We all learn politics, and there is no doubt that politically speaking, I am more experienced than four years ago. So I have more experience and I have been burnt on various occasions, but as far as my interests are concerned, nothing has changed. I thought Israel needed unity during the coronavirus pandemic; I got into the government and paid dearly for that, but I am at peace with my decision. The voters have now elected 64 MKs to government them, and that is what they are going to get. I will continue casting myself as an alternative, and I hope that one day I will be able to put it to use."
Q: So what alternative can there be to Netanyahu?
"We cannot absolve Netanyahu of any responsibility for what is happening in Israel. What needs to guide him in his decisions is what Israel needs, not what he needs politically. He needs to tell his Coalition partners what the direction is. He must demand that the judicial reform get broad consensus and that the soon-to-be-formed national guard reports to only one entity and insist that Smotrich will report to the defense minister as to how the IDF operates in Judea and Samaria and to address the Iranian nuclear program that is moving forward and be ready to deal with the enemies that could act against Israel from the north and Gaza. But instead, they are the ones setting the agenda.:
Gantz is also very much concerned over the damage to Israel-US relations. "He [Netanyahu] must stop everything that he is doing and go to America to mend fences," Gantz says. "How can you make sense of something like that, of losing the strategic backing offered by the US or running the risk of losing it? Yes, we can be our own masters, but this backing gives us security, and gives us international support. It helps develop the great economy that we had only three or four months ago. Netanyahu ignores all this because of his personal priorities and because he has lost control over his government."
Q: So if this is the current state of affairs, what are the chances that the current talks on judicial reform succeed?
"I will do my utmost to make sure they are successful, and I hope we can get something good out of all of this. We entered the talks with six principles, and we believe each offers more than one path to compromise: No to the politicization of the courts; judicial review remains intact; a new basic law for the legislation will be passed; more civic reforms; faster judicial proceedings for defendants; and more oversight on the State Attorney's Office."
"Anything but politicization"
Q: Do you believe the Coalition wants to hammer out a deal?
"If Netanyahu allows his people just to show up to buy time, it would not get lost on Israelis. It would be a very big mistake on a national scale that would have wide-ranging consequences. I hope, for the Israeli people, that he does not make this mistake."
Q: A deal would ultimately boil down to an agreement on appointing justice.s
"I will not be part of the politicization of the system. I can hear endless ideas and am willing to stay in the talks until there is white smoke. But the principle that we are not going to let politicization take root is not going to change, no matter where this is coming from – be it from Levin or from Labor Chairwoman Merav Michaeli. Not from the Right and not from the Left. I want the appointment mechanism to be balanced and fair and representative of Israeli society and I see no problem in having it split down the middle between women and men, religious and secular, Arabs and Haredim. I am open to anything but politicization."
Q: Netanyahu says democracy will not be hurt.
"Being in power is inherently a dangerous thing because it gives you power; that is why the government must be reined in. The LIkud talked about bolstering the rule of law as far back as 1993, as well as cherishing the supremacy of the courts and having all other branches report to it. What's changed since? The government must know how to place limits on its power."
Q: And what if you fail to reach an agreement?
"If they proceed to legislate things unilaterally, the protest movement will only grow."
Q: To the point of blood being shed?
"Yes, this is truly commensurate with the future reality I see. YOu see the violence that is already spewing and we might see a more forceful collision. There is a great danger that civil war will erupt. This will be a tragedy."
Q: Who would get the blame for this?
"There is only one prime minister in Israel. I am not prime minister; Netanyahu is, and he is responsible for what unfolds."
Q: He has accused your side of anarchy, violence, and illegal strikes.
"The right to strike is an inherent right, as is the right to protest. It is legitimate that people protest. I have always come out against violence and disobedience in the military and I call for talks on day one, not just after three months, even before there was even one placard in a street protest and before there was the protest movement knew that it was a protest movement. What did he do with that call? He essentially said, 'Let it play itself out; let's see where this goes' and now we ended up where we ended up."
Q: What if he lets it continue to play itself out?
"Then things will become that much more dangerous. The protest movement is authentic and cross-sectional; it has emerged from the grassroots. But if there is one thing that stands out is the blue and white flag that is shared by both camps. That underscores why we have to talk with one another."
Q: You mentioned the disobedience in the military. Those who have stopped showing up say that this is not the same, because they have only stopped volunteering rather than refusing call up notices.
"Refusing orders is not part of the rules of the game. I have tremendous respect for the IDF reservists. They comprise a small segment of society and they should receive every bit of appreciation. I grew up with them, I commanded them, my son serves in the reserves and I have nothing bad to say about them. But refusing service is just not done."
Q: What if they told you that they signed up because they had a contract with a democracy, not with a different regime?
"I see where they are coming from and their fears. I have been speaking with them and I hope that their fears don't materialize. We will do everything we can so that they won't. But I will not accept military disobedience. I have been against the judicial reform for the same reason, and we are going to continue fighting and intensify the protests if necessary, but we will not refuse orders.'
Q: Do you think the IDF chief of staff has handled this situation correctly?
"I haven't spoken to him, but generally speaking he has been doing a good job. He has to juggle many things simultaneously, including the impact of the protest movement, the security needs and other aspects of building Israel prowess.
The talks with Netanyahu
Q: You are probably aware of the ongoing attacks on Israeli Air Force pilots that have cast them as public enemy no. 1?
"These are our greatest sons and daughters. We send them all over the MiddlE East at various altitudes and massive ordnance payloads, and they could be incinerated in a millisecond – but they choose nonetheless to lift off, do their mission and return. The same with the troops that conduct overnight raids in Jenin or patrol the northern border, and those who sit in command centers or logistical hubs to make sure the units get food. Those who serve the state and contribute to the military, our security and society, do something heroic, and I will not allow them to be called anarchists."
Over the past several days, Gantz has found himself in an awkward situation: defending Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, whom he replaced as IDF chief of staff after his appointment had been withdrawn due to a controversy.
"I spoke with Netanyahu and I told him that Gallant must remain. Security matters must be above the fray. Netanyahu and Gallant should hash things out behind closed doors, perhaps even hold a shouting match, but they should not tinker with security. Our enemies sit and hear, and they make their assessments accordingly."
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