Dramatic political changes happen, on the whole, as a complete surprise, but Justice Minister Gideon Sa'ar says he knew about the most dramatic political development of recent weeks – MK Idit Silman's defection to Likud – well in advance and even warned about it.
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"I wasn't surprised," he says in an interview with Israel Hayom. "I discussed it with Prime Minister Naftali Bennett several times the week before, and I told him very clearly there were serious contacts with Likud."
Q: How did you know?
"I have friends in the Likud and it's always good to get real-time intelligence. I knew there was contact. I warned about them. The first time was a week before she made her announcement. The second was two days before it."
Q: Didn't Bennett do anything? What did he say?
"I don't want to go into detail about what was said in our conversation, but I knew what was going on."
Q: Doesn't that make Bennett's slip up even bigger?
"I don't exclude the possibility that it could have been prevented, but that's all in retrospect. The effort invested by the Opposition in this move was intense."
Q: What made Silman break?
"I don't want to analyze the situation. I understand, from what I've read, that Silman was promised certain positions in the Knesset and the next government. So forgive me if I can't see it as some kind of ideological enlightenment."
Q: Do you think she's an opportunist?
"When I reached the conclusion in December 2020 that I could no longer be part of the Likud, I went to the faction chairman and submitted my resignation. I didn't know then that there would be an election. I took a risk. In my opinion, that's the way to behave. Today, it seems to be taken for granted that you can try and bribe MKs from one faction to defect to another faction."
Q: You took people from the Likud, [MKs] Michal Shir and Sharren Haskel.
"They both submitted their resignations."
Q: They knew they had a place with New Hope. What's the difference?
"It was obvious they would go with me, but the issue of their place on the list never came up. Silman knows she'll be on the [Likud] list, but hasn't submitted her resignation. She's holding on to her seat. I like clarity and integrity. If, as reported, she received promises about [a place on the] Likud list for the next Knesset and a cabinet position, then it's not honorable or ideological. I find it difficult to be impressed or enthused by Silman's move."
Q: Are you sure there are no defectors in your camp?
"Do you know how many times people have said that to me? Prior to the Knesset elections, during negotiations, and all the way through the establishment of the government. We never had defectors or rebels, and it won't happen. New Hope is united."
Q: Are you sure that none of your MKs are in contact with other parties?
"I know what's happening, I know that Likud is sending messages to everyone, including me. I've received very generous offers, not only now, but also before the government was formed. Until a few days ago, MK Silman was enthusiastically persuading people to support the coalition. Suddenly she changes her mind a few days after the end of the Knesset session? What happened? I don't like it when people hold on to their seat while also receiving promises from the other side. "
Sa'ar is one of the most experienced politicians in the Knesset. He has been through some stuff and and knows what goes on behind the scenes. He has been involved in the complex work of stitching together coalitions and is a veteran of countless political ploys. Recently, he claimed that there were criminal aspects to the pressure applied on Silman and others in Yamina.
"I stand behind everything I said. If people accuse others of being traitors and threaten MKs and their families, that is extremely serious and could be criminal. This is a violent campaign that penetrates the personal and family space to impose fear and terror. This campaign also includes things that, even if they aren't criminal, aren't legitimate. What Bezalel Smotrich said might not be criminal, but calling to ban people from synagogues is, in my opinion, illegitimate."
Q: Is that what pushed Silman over the edge?
"I don't want to get into the specifics of this case. The combination is one of pressure and temptation. On one hand, people vilify you and on the other, they promise you the whole world."
Q: How will the government and the coalition survive?
"It's too early to make any forecasts, but there will be a need for action. Things will have to be decided ahead of the summer session of the Knesset in May."
Q: What could change? Could Silman return?
"All sorts of things could happen. I'm not going to deal with speculations. We will have to see what the situation is. It was difficult before and it will be even more difficult now to maintain the coalition. We will have to make an effort to maintain a functioning government. I hope this effort will succeed. It's not impossible, but it isn't certain, either."
Q: The way things are, it looks like the budget won't pass.
"Not necessarily. There have been budgets that have passed thanks to agreements with Opposition MKs, but there's no doubt that passing any law now, including the budget, will be more difficult."
Q: You don't have a majority anymore. It's 60:60 in the Knesset. Does a government like this have legitimacy?
"There were governments that had a narrower parliamentary basis. A new election is a bad option."
Q: Would you depend on the Joint Arab List?
"That's fiction. There's no option of the Joint Arab List joining the coalition."
Q: Would you rely on it from the outside for certain laws?
"The Likud is responsible for all the parliamentary achievements of the Joint List in the current Knesset – a hospital in Sakhnin, and exemption from municipal taxes for religious institutions. Likud is the one cooperating with the Joint Arab List. In general, it's common practice in every Knesset to cooperate with them, on two conditions: That they are not part of the coalition, and we don't compromise our principles."
Eulogize Sa'ar at your own risk
Aug. 27, 2023, is the day the government is due to rotate, with Foreign Minister Yair Lapid slated to become prime minister. Sa'ar has said that asking him whether he would sit in a government under Lapid was like asking him whether he would sit under Peter Pan, but now that the government has been in place for 10 months, he takes a different tone.
"A day before the election, I said very clearly that I didn't rule out a rotation with Lapid." Sa'ar reminds us.
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"I said that there was no chance I would sit in a government under Lapid if was built entirely on left-wing parties. A 'paritetic' rotation government, like this current government, is a completely different story. "
Q: How worried are you by polls that show you won't pass the minimum threshold in an election? If those numbers are right, you won't be in the next Knesset.
"You can see the considerable differences in the results of polls commissioned by different media outlets. There are polls in which I make it through and that raises questions, but I certainly expect to do a lot better in the true test, the election. I have to emphasize that I'm not where I'd like to be, but remember that throughout most of the last election campaign, Benny Gantz was below the election threshold. The same goes for Ra'am and Meretz, and the final results were different. In the end, with all due respect to polls, it's the results at the ballot box that count.
"I'm calm and sure of my path. There's an organized campaign coming from within the Likud that is saying we won't pass the threshold. We've surprised people so many times and managed to disappoint those who have eulogized us, and we will this time, as well."
Q: If the polls continue to put you below the threshold, will you join forces with Bennett or someone else?
"I intend to run with New Hope. There's no other plan. We don't plan to partner with anyone else."
Q: You protested when Likud activists heckled and threw eggs at your political events during the election campaign. Recently, there was a violent incident at one of your events. We didn't hear anything from you.
"It wasn't a New Hope activist. [He] sneaked into our convention using a false identity. He wanted to disrupt the convention."
Q: How do you explain the violence against him? He was injured and photos show bruises on his back.
"He refused to leave and was dragged on the floor. His back was on the floor. We'll look into whether there was any violence and reach conclusions. I condemn any violence. There was an attempt to stop a reporter from taking photos. That's wrong and unacceptable."
Q: You are promoting several personal laws against Opposition leader Benjamin Netanyahu, as well as the Facebook Law and the Search Law. Some would argue they present a danger to individual liberties and a danger to democracy.
"All these laws were originally put forth by people who now oppose them. When [Ehud] Olmert was prime minister, Netanyahu voted for a bill that stated that a prime minister under indictment could not serve. Both these laws were tabled by Likud, which then dropped them.
"These are two crucial laws. During the current wave of terrorism, the law against incitement on social media (The Facebook Law) is more relevant than ever. If videos are being circulated hailing terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens and can lead to copycat attacks, shouldn't that be stopped? Is it undemocratic to block these videos?
"The Search Law [expanding police powers to conduct searches without a warrant] is also crucial. Our problem with crime in the Arab sector is in solving these crimes. The murderers and their masters are walking about freely among the Arab public.
"Arab citizens want the police to restore order, but they're afraid of the criminal organizations. Some crimes are recorded on camera in public spaces. There are places where the police need to seize video immediately. Of course, there are limitations, such as requiring police authorization and the use of temporary orders, but the law is intended to serve as a tool to allow the police to immediately seize videos and not have to wait for a warrant. Otherwise, in the meantime, criminal organizations and people who are afraid of these criminal organizations will get there first and erase the materials. The police need the tools and the authority to deal with crime. I say to Likud, 'You're responsible for the lack of governance. And now you want to stop us from working?' It's outrageous."
Splitting the powers of the Attorney General
Sa'ar is a reformist minister and many of the reforms he wants to pass have already gone through. For example, hearings before the appointment of Supreme Court judges. "This is huge," says Sa'ar. "At the end of the day, it's based on the fact that we and the justices work for the public and are required to be transparent."
Sa'ar explains that this is the second time in the history of the state that there has been a significant change in the way Supreme Court justices are elected.
"The first was 15 years ago, when I passed a law that required a special majority to elect a judge to the Supreme Court. That completely changed the map because it required compromise, which leads to a more heterogeneous and diverse court. Today the Supreme Court is far more diverse in terms of judicial points of view."
Sa'ar emphasizes that his goal is not to "duplicate" his worldviews in every judge in order to create influence.
"I would never select a judge that I think isn't professional, even if they voted for my party," he says. "They must be jurists of the highest level. The Supreme Court must be a heterogeneous place where it is not evident what the court will rule and it surprises every time in the direction it chooses. The politicization of the judicial system is not a good thing.
"Our selection this time was very diverse – two women and two men, and, for the first time, a Muslim judge was elected. I think that's very important. I wouldn't pick an unsuitable candidate because he was from a particular ethnic community, but if possible, we should create a situation where the court represents all the colors of the state of Israel."
Not a supporter of judicial activism
Coincidentally (or not) Sa'ar's candidate for the Attorney General Gali Baharav-Miara ended up getting the job. They don't agree on every issue, but he says they work together in a spirit of cooperation and mutual respect. "We disagreed, for example, on the Basic Law defending the rights of defendants in a criminal trial," Sa'ar says. "We went through every clause, but in matters of legislation, if there is no judicial obstacle, the decision is mine."
Q: Where do things stand with the division of powers of the Attorney General?
"The model is currently being worked out. I spoke about this with the Attorney General prior to her being picked for the job. We still haven't had a working meeting on this issue, but this will happen soon. I intend for it to happen as I do every other issue that I have spoken about."
When Sa'ar is asked about the tension between the executive and legislative branches when it comes to interference in government decisions, he defends the judicial system. "The court won't interfere in everything that the government does. Look at the statistics on petitions to the High Court. In most cases, the government position is accepted and petitions against legislation are rejected. But I haven't hidden in the past and I don't hide today that I am not a proponent of judicial activism. I believe in judicial restraint, in that the court needs to respect other authorities."
Q: Last week your office approved a bill to connect settlement outposts to the electricity grid, but Palestinian villages are also being connected, a move you opposed in the past. Why have you changed your position?
"We have no intention of legitimizing moves by the Palestinian Authority to take over land in Area C. We want to provide a solution for dozens of Israeli communities after more than 20 years. Unfortunately, this issue was neglected for many years."
