"Russia is behaving like Hamas, just bigger and far more dangerous, and Israel should understand this better than anyone," Mykhailo Podolyak, an adviser to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, told Israel Hayom over the weekend.
Follow Israel Hayom on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram
Podolyak, 50, one of Zelenskyy's closest advisers, is a former journalist who two years ago was labeled by a Ukrainian newspaper as the third-most influential person in the country. He has been advising Zelenskyy since 2020, and is in charge of crisis management and coordinating media policy. These days, he is also part of the small delegation managing talks with Russian representatives in an effort to end the war. In a conversation with Israel Hayom from the most famous briefing room in the world at the moment, Podolyak discusses the humanitarian disaster caused by Russia's bombardment of Ukrainian civilians and Israel's role as a mediator.
PM of 🇮🇱 @naftalibennett, just as other conditional intermediary countries, does NOT offer Ukraine to agree to any demands of the Russian Federation. This is impossible for military & political reasons. On the contrary, Israel urges Russia to assess the events more adequately.
— Михайло Подоляк (@Podolyak_M) March 12, 2022
Q: It was reported in Israel over the weekend that Prime Minister Naftali Bennett advised Zelenskyy to accept Russian President Vladimir Putin's demands. What can you say about this information?
"This is faulty information. The ultimatums in the initial Russian package were fundamentally unacceptable because they were predicated on the distorted perception about what Ukraine is, who the leaders of Ukraine are, and what the Ukrainian army is, etc. Russia's expectation was that a quick [military] operation would provide the desired result within a day, or at the very least two days. Now, after 17 days of fighting, it seems Russia understands its situation far better and what it will gain from this war. Hence the package of Russian demands is becoming more appropriate. Their package is still not ready, and as of now no mediator, including Prime Minister Bennett, has advised 'taking the Russian offer,' taking into account the way Ukraine is fighting.
"You need to understand something, and in my opinion, your prime minister understands this very well: Public opinion matters a lot in Ukraine. We are a free country where society influences the government's positions. We are not an autocracy where the government makes decisions and the people fall in line. The people today will not accept any ultimatum, and won't agree to lay down their weapons. The potential mediators understand this, they see Zelenskyy's firm resolve, and therefore no one will ask of us to simply 'meet the demands of the Russian Federation.' The Israeli leadership understands very well the conditions under which negotiations can be held and the concessions Ukraine will not make."
Meanwhile, according to a report by Barak Ravid of the Axios news site, Zelenskyy on Saturday said he had proposed to hold peace talks with Russia in Jerusalem, adding that Israel could provide "security guarantees."
"Yes, the issue is being discussed," says Podolyak. "Israel is viewed as a central location for talks. Israel is very sensitive to conflicts – after all, you are always under external pressure – and we are in a similar situation. Although for us, the adversary is much stronger. Look, the mediation allows for a neutral perspective in areas where it is particularly difficult to compromise. It's important to us for countries with a clear understanding of modern conflict, with military escalations, to explain to Russia that this is a dead-end. This will lead to serious casualties for Russia, in fact.
"Obviously our own people are currently paying a price in lives, territory and destroyed civilian infrastructure. With that, though, in the medium and long term, from a reputational perspective, everything that is happening is a disaster for Russia, and it seems Prime Minister Bennett and the Israeli leadership understand this and are bringing this to Russia's attention. I think this is an extremely helpful role. Israel can explain Ukraine's psychology to Russia; in other words, if we give up now, we will get constant conflict escalation in return."
According to Podolyak, he "doesn't understand Israel's approach pertaining to sanctions, because they are important," but understands Israel's sensitivities in that "Russia is working with your enemies and helping them with weapons, advising them, and giving them economic support. Israel is in a very complex situation; we understand this and greatly respect Israel's position, regardless."
As for Zelenskyy's planned video address to the Israeli parliament, Polodiak says preparations are underway. "I can't say this will happen tomorrow or the next day, but it wouldn't be bad to speak with the Israeli political elite and bring to its attention that more intensive involvement in the conflict is vital."
Zelenskyy's expected message to the Knesset will likely be similar to the message he has already delivered to other parliaments across the globe: objectively assess the damage Russia is currently inflicting to the world, and accordingly consider the scope of aid you are willing to grant Ukraine. "This can be military, financial, or technological aid. After all, Russia sells nothing to the world; not technology, no new products, it doesn't sell anything that contributes to the development of human civilization. Russia sells territorial demands, expansion, conflicts, weapons, so that a group like Hamas or something similar can sow destruction. Russia markets the destruction of civilization.
"Zelenskyy wants to make it clear that Ukraine is ready to contend with this directly, but Ukraine is significantly smaller than Russia militarily speaking. For 20 years, Russia has invested a fortune in it military, increasing the percentage of its Gross Domestic Product that goes to security. Now Ukraine is saying: Help us stop all this and explain to such a belligerent country that military expansionism is not a path to development, but a dead end. This is always Zelenskyy's message when he speaks.
"I think Israel will understand this message far better because Israel itself is always in conflict with countries or territories full of military weapons, which are supported by Russia and promote its destructive philosophy. Russia and Hamas act in a similar fashion, and Israel understands this much better than Italy, France, Germany, or Great Britain. Israel should be more understanding of Ukraine's predicament, and I believe Zelenskyy can transfer this message."
Q: What is your opinion about the Russian claim of "liberating Ukraine from the Nazis?" This is very important to many Israelis.
"We have radical movements, as does every other country in Europe that also has [political] parties comprising extremist elements, even Nazi elements. In some provinces in Germany, they are even prominent; same with Hungary or France. In Ukraine, there are 3%-4% who are under the influence of these extremist views. This is a global trend. But to say that we have Nazism or nationalism in the government – this is a Russian delusion. We are a free country, we have competitive politics, we communicate with all other countries, our borders are open; Russia and Ukraine are two different planets. We hold competition, pluralism, and liberty as the highest of values; in Russia, as per its tradition, half the population is prison guards and the other half is the prisoners, and then they switch places. This is their idea of civilization, and therefore it's very difficult to talk with them."
Q: Is there any progress in the negotiations between your team and the Russian team?
"Things are moving. The team of [former Russian minister] Vladimir Medinsky is very constructive and is objectively assessing the extent of the crisis and its destructive results for Russia. We are giving them a clear picture of what is happening, trying to teach them to think critically about their own propaganda, and it seems like we're succeeding. I believe that very soon, we will put together an initial draft for a compromise on a ceasefire and the removal of Russian forces from Ukraine, but the two presidents will need to discuss and sign a final, comprehensive agreement. They will need to decide it between themselves."
Q: Do you think that Putin is getting a picture of the situation?
"Without a doubt. Medinsky is pretty effective as the Russian representative in talks, and from what I understand from his rhetoric and the way we are moving forward, he is talking directly to Putin and there are issues that are progressing well."
Q: There are also statements like that of Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov this weekend, who said that Russia hasn't attacked Ukraine at all. Or claims by the Russian Defense Ministry about Ukraine developing biological weapons to use against Ukraine.
"We are living in parallel realities. Russia lives in a reality parallel to that of the real world. For years, they constructed internal myths. At first, they wanted the Russian population to not notice the domestic problems. Then the elite started to believe these myths. It's absurd to deploy nearly 200,000 soldiers around Ukraine and then say that Ukraine, which has a much small army and less equipment, intends to attack Russia. Or that [they are] developing biological or chemical weapons, when Ukraine has a neighbor that is just looking for an excuse to attack.
"There is completely perverse reasoning. You and I aren't psychiatrists, and can't explain how this dissonance works with the citizens. All the talk about chemical or biological [weapons] labs are attempts to find justifications so that when the war is over they have something to cling to legally to justify bombing 16 Ukrainian districts and a ground invasion."
Q: If progress is made in negotiations, what's the point of bombing and deepening the humanitarian crisis?
"Because their tactic has changed. First, they want to sow panic. Second, they primitively think that through the use of direct shelling, their negotiating position will be stronger. Third, they have a hawkish wing, in the military too, that wants to prove to the entire world that the military still has value. After all, it's really shameful: Russia brought in a massive force, with a huge amount of heavy equipment, with the assistance of fighter jets and attack helicopters, from five to six invasion directions against a small country that dedicated the lion's share of its gross domestic product to improving the quality of life of its citizens, and for weeks is unable to militarily resolve the 'Ukrainian problem.' It looks embarrassing. I think Russia is resetting its reputation as a country that should be feared. That's good. Ukraine is willing to help with this. And the fourth reason is the pressure on Russia itself: Russian citizens are entering [a state of] economic panic, and therefore through escalated bombings, Russia is trying to end the war as quickly as possible so that some of their conditions are accepted."
Q: How do you see the conflict developing in the coming weeks?
"The war in the trenches will continue on the front lines. We restrained them, and they don't know how to fight, but they will stand in large numbers along the front without any real progress. Don't forget that the Russian soldiers are also hanging around here hungry and pillaging stores. In Russia, they don't have any understanding of this thing called 'logistics': They send a huge number of soldiers, who will pillage and die. On the other hand, they will try through the remainder of their rocket weapons to attack the cities. Unfortunately, we will see a few dozen more facilities destroyed – hospitals, kindergartens, and the like – and we will see the Russians take pride in it. We will have a larger supply of anti-aircraft systems, and then Russia will lose its final advantage."
Q: What essentially is Ukraine relying on through the negotiation process? Closed skies? It doesn't seem like this is on the table, after all.
"I wouldn't rule it out completely. What's unique about Zelenskyy is that he turns the impossible into the possible. In the first three days [of the fighting] our Western partners acted as if nothing was happening. There was no help at all, not humanitarian, not military, or otherwise. Everyone thought Ukraine was finished. And then suddenly, in one fell swoop, they opened their borders, sufficient aid started arriving in terms of equipment, finances, in the humanitarian realm, which is why we're in a relatively comfortable position for now. This is also Zelenskyy's accomplishment. I'm convinced the skies will also be closed, and that cruise missiles will be intercepted."
Q: Time is running out, both for Russia and Ukraine.
"Every hour someone is killed or experiences indescribable suffering without food, heat, or medicine. I want you to understand the significance of this moment: Ukraine is paying and will pay the ultimate price, perhaps, because the West has become accustomed to living comfortably and [its leaders] are afraid to look up and face the truth. But for Ukraine, freedom is a supreme value and we will fight for it.
"Just like Israel has proven its right to exist in a territory – and it is known what its neighbors have thought about its existence – Ukraine, too, is proving that is has strong people, who value freedom. It is essential to [one's] mental health, and for the historic health of human civilization."
"This isn't pathos," Podolyak continued, "it is an awareness that sometimes, some countries have to pay a high price so that other countries can return to a reasonable position – by this I mean the Western partners. They have ceased to accept responsibility in recent years, they have turned a blind eye to many problems, and I think now a rethinking is in order.
"The world is very lucky that Ukraine is led by a man like Zelenskyy. It is not inconceivable that if there was another leader in his place, we would have been prey a long time ago."
He further said that if Russia faced mounting pressure while Ukraine receives additional international support, "the war could go on for another month, but it could also last longer if Russia is willing to take itself back to the 17th century."
Subscribe to Israel Hayom's daily newsletter and never miss our top stories!
