It is hard to imagine a political duo more contrasting in character than Donald Trump and Mike Pence were. The former president – temperamental, blunt, a businessman and media personality who broke conventions, who split America into admirers and haters; His vice president – a classic, level-headed, and restrained public personality, with an orderly ideology and fervent religious faith.
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Between 2017 and 2021, they ran the world's only superpower together, but the partnership ended with the Trump supporters' disruptive invasion of the Capitol. Since the end of Trump's presidency, the relationship between the two has seen its ups and downs.
Meanwhile, Pence, 62, seems to be warming up on the sidelines and preparing for an independent run for the presidency in 2024.
"I'll let you know if I run," he tells me, smiling. Everything points to such an intention. He has a political organization, a large team that accompanies him, media appearances, fundraising efforts. In short, Pence is testing the waters, but will only decide whether to jump in next fall, two years before the election, as is customary in the United States.
American vice presidents tend to stay in the shadow of the leader in the Oval Office. All the more so when it comes to Trump, whom the media ceaselessly attacked during his four years as president. As for Pence, outward silence does not always indicate the impact he had inside the office. For four years, he played a crucial role in historic events, especially Trump's historic recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
In Sledgehammer, Former US Ambassador to Israel David Friedman wrote that after the decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel was made in principle, it was Pence who stood guard in Washington to make sure it was implemented.
Two days before the announcement was made, Pence was determined to keep the opposition away, the book said.
Pence is most proud of his contribution to the process. This week, he received an honorary doctorate from Ariel University, located in Judea and Samaria. This was the first time a former US vice president visited the region, and for Pence, not only was this not a problem, but he attributed to the settlements a vital role in developing Judea and Samaria.
Video: Moshe Ben Simhon
"I think it's important that we recognize the vital role that the so-called settlements have played in the expansion of prosperity across this region and that we don't buy into the arguments of the Left against the construction and the investment that has really contributed to the wellbeing and prosperity," he said.
"Israel in so many ways is that miracle, that garden in the desert, that's emerged, that I believe is the consequence of the industry, the ingenuity of the people of Israel. But also, I believe with all my heart it's evidence of the grace of God who millennia ago promised that he would bring his people back to this land and he would prosper them there.
"So for me, for my family, and I can say, on behalf of the overwhelming majority of the American people, we look at the success of Israel, we cherish our relationship, we stand with it in security. America and Israel will always walk together in peace and in that strong and unbreakable bond throughout all of coming history."
It is obvious that Pence's words about the Jewish state and people emanate from the heart. His passion for the people of Israel and their place in their country is an integral part of his conservative and religious ideology that has accompanied him throughout his public life in the US.
"I'm a Christian, a Conservative, and a Republican – in that order" – with this slogan Pence became a popular radio talk show host in Indiana, a local congressman, member of the House of Representatives in Washington, the governor of Indiana, and finally, vice president.
Naturally, we begin with the most pressing international matter, the Russian invasion of Ukraine, which the former vice president wished to emphasize is linked to Washington negotiating with Moscow to renew the Iran nuclear deal. After all, as is the opinion in Israel, the more important event is what seems to be a return of the powers – led by the US – to the agreement, officially known as the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action.
"President Trump and our administration got out of the Iran nuclear deal because it was disastrous from the very beginning," Pence began. "The JCPOA not only did not prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon, it essentially guaranteed that after a period of a decade, they would have the ability to obtain nuclear weapons, which is totally and utterly unacceptable to the American people, obviously, the people of Israel, and we were right to get out of it.
"But let me say that the Russian invasion of Ukraine is a travesty. The fault for that lies squarely at the feet of [Russian President] Vladimir Putin. Putin must stop or Putin must pay. We need to focus the world's energy on ending the Ukrainian invasion and continuing to put pressure until the Russian troops are out of Ukraine.
"But I must tell you that as the travesty unfolds on the landscape of Ukraine – Russians stormtroopers destroying cities and killing innocent civilians – it is just unconscionable that the American administration is at the same time negotiating at the side of the Russians to restart the Iranian nuclear deal. It would be bad in peacetime, to be restarting the Iran nuclear deal but to literally be working with the Russians to achieve some once again deeply flawed and dangerous agreement with the ayatollahs in Iran is just utterly unacceptable. And I believe that particularly at such a time as this, our administration in the US should not be working with Russia to ease sanctions or in any way put Iran back among the community of nations."
Q: One of Iran's demands is to make sure that the next US administration, possibly a Republican one, will not withdraw from the deal again. If you hold a position in the next administration, will you push for such a withdrawal?
"I believe that the Republican Party will win control of the House and Senate in 2022 and I believe we'll win back America and the White House in 2024. And if the JCPOA finds a way to be resurrected, we will be a part and a voice of a chorus of Americans with that new administration coming into office to end the JCPOA just as quickly as we ended it under the Trump-Pence administration."
Q: Some claim that it is precisely the US withdrawal that led to Iran enriching its uranium to such unprecedented levels. What is your reply to that?
"I think first it's important to remember that Iran has more enriched uranium today than they had at the outset of negotiations over the JCPOA. But during our administration it wasn't just that we got out of the JCPOA, it was that we isolated Iran like never before. We challenged their malign activities. We not only took down ISIS and Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, but it was our administration that took down [the "father" of the Iranian nuclear program] Qassem Soleimani. We made it clear to Iran and all of their affiliate organizations and terrorist groups across the region that the day of them sewing violence across the wider Arab world was over."
Q: If the JCPOA is renewed, in your opinion, should Israel feel obligation to such an agreement or feel free to act as it sees fit?
"What Israel can count on is that the American people will continue to provide the resources for Israel to be able to defend itself by itself. I must tell you, in the early days of this new administration to see rockets raining down on Israel from Gaza and to hear such silence from our administration when all of that was taking place should not undermine the confidence of the people of Israel that the American people stand with our most cherished ally. "Israel should always feel the freedom to do what is necessary to protect their people and to protect their territorial integrity."
Besides the negotiations over the nuclear deal, the war in Ukraine is at the center of the global agenda, and Pence has a clear idea of the circumstances that led to the events and the steps that must be taken now.
"The responsibility for the travesty of the Russian invasion in Ukraine falls squarely on Vladimir Putin. His decision to attempt again to redraw international boundaries by force is his and his alone. And it's the reason why we need to continue to arm Ukraine, we need to continue to marshal resources to give them the ability to take the fight on the ground and in the air against the Russian forces. It's one of the reasons we need to sanction all the financial institutions in Russia, and the time has come for us to sanction oil and gas exports from Russia [which the Biden administration announced two days after the interview]. We simply should not be purchasing energy resources from Russia."
Q: Even if it leads to significant price increases?
"Well, the prices have already gone up. I would expect they will continue to go up. It's just absolutely essential that the free world take a stand against Russia's aggression. And also, understand that the lifeblood of the Russian economy is oil and gas exports. We're going to continue to call all across the United States, on our administration, to take decisive action, to sanction and in effect embargo oil and natural gas from Russia.
"I think then, and only then, will the Russian economy and Vladimir Putin feel the full weight. I mean, our economy alone is 15 times the size of Russia's economy, and we need to hold them accountable for that. Putin should be very clear and understand that if they do not stop this unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, costing innocent civilian lives, that Russia will pay a price, now and for many many months and perhaps years in the future."
Q: And that will break him?
"Well, first, it's just the right thing to do, and this is a moment that calls for moral clarity. We simply cannot continue to subsidize the Russian war machine as they are killing civilians and trampling cities underfoot in Ukraine. Now that being said, your other question was about the environment that was set by this new administration.
"It's no coincidence that the Trump-Pence administration was the only administration in the 21st century in the United States, where Russia did not seize land beyond its borders. Under the Bush administration, they rolled tanks into Georgia. When I visited there, I was almost within eyesight of where those tanks are to this day. Under the Obama-Biden administration, they took Crimea.
"But I believe that the action that President Trump took in Syria, in the wake of the use of chemical weapons where we sent 58 cruise missiles, the action against ISIS, the action against Soleimani, and to no lesser extent, the military confrontation that cost the lives of some 150 so-called Russian mercenaries in Syria all sent a message of American strength that served as deterrents from Vladimir Putin's ambitions to redraw European boundaries by force.
"There's a truth of history that weakness arouses evil, and as an American, I lament the fact that our administration – whether it be with Nord Stream 2, whether it be reentering the new start agreement, whether it restarting the Iran nuclear deal, or the disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan – sent a message of weakness that emboldened our adversaries and created the conditions where Putin would take the action for which he is responsible, but take the action to move tens of thousands of forces into Ukraine to a horrifying effect."
In the past week, Israel has stood at the center of the world political stage, with Prime Minister Naftali Bennett's meetings and phone calls with Putin, and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy and efforts to mediate between the two. Bennett was also criticized by Ukraine for the Israeli government's conduct regarding the war. Jerusalem has not yet imposed sanctions on Moscow and Russian planes continue to fly to Israel. Pence, however, seems to understand the complexity of the situation.
"I'm grateful that Israel supported the resolution ultimately that came before the United Nations," he said. "I think it is important that freedom-loving nations around the world speak with one voice. But we understand the complexity of this region. And while we'll call on our administration in the United States to take decisive action to continue to arm Ukraine, to continue to sanction financial institutions, to use the enormous economic power of the United States to limit access, institutions that use the dollar, and we'll call on an embargo on oil – I think it's essential that we respect the unique position that Israel is in, both in the region and on the global stage."
Q: Should Israel try to mediate between the sides, as Bennett did?
"Well, in my Christian tradition, there's a proverb that says,'Blessed are the peacemakers.' And as we see over 1.4 million refugees that have fled Ukraine, enormous humanitarian crisis, we see the brutality of the Russian military, literally destroying cities, indiscriminately bombing civilians – we welcome any effort that would bring an end to the violence, an end to the war, and Prime Minister Bennett's efforts this past weekend were well-intentioned. We will just continue to openly pray with people around the world that we find a way to bring this war to an end."
Q: On the other hand, some say that sometimes in life you have to be smart, rather than just. Perhaps, in this case, the US shouldn't push Ukraine to join NATO, and if the West said it supported Ukraine but did not want it to join, perhaps this would be the smarter way?
"Those that think that NATO expansion into Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania or Montenegro was in some way responsible for Russian aggression ought to think where Russian tanks would be today if we had not expanded NATO. And I think we need to leave the door of NATO open to Ukraine and freedom-loving nations across Europe and to understand that in this tragic moment of the Russian invasion of Ukraine we're seeing greater strength in NATO than we've seen for many years.
"You know, during our administration, President Trump and I both delivered a strong and consistent message that our NATO allies needed to start living up to their obligation for our common defense. And what Russia managed to accomplish – that we had called on NATO allies to do – is actually to have Germany now commit 2% of its GDP for national defense and transferring weapons into Ukraine. Under our administration, Germany had committed to reach that 2% threshold in roughly a decade. We did secure more than 120 billion dollars more in investments in our common defense in NATO.
"But I do believe that Putin and the Russians did not expect the unity and the strength and the renewed commitment to our NATO alliance that they are seeing today. So I wouldn't close the door on any nation to NATO, I wouldn't close the doors on the boundaries on freedom to any nation, including Ukraine."
Throughout the interview, Pence praises Trump, though ties between the two are strained. Lately, Pence has even begun responding to Trump's statements in an unprecedented manner. Recently, the former president claimed again that the 2020 presidential elections were rigged, and that Pence should have prevented Congress from recognizing Biden and Kamala Harris as president and vice president. But according to Pence, he had no way of changing the results, and that the presidency belonged to the American people alone.
Pence also opposed Trump's support for Putin's "genius" invasion of Ukraine, which caused the former president to change directions.
Trump continues to be the most popular figure in the Republican Party, and senior members are careful not to oppose him. Political commentators believe that is the reason Pence has decided to distance himself from the former president, assuming that the two would not work together in the future in any case. And yet, the former vice president remembers all the good things they achieved together in the White House.
Q: Take us back to the moment when the decision to move the US Embassy to Jerusalem was made, and your contribution.
"I couldn't be more proud to have been a part of an administration that kept our word to the American people and also to the people of Israel to move our embassy to Jerusalem. It's important to remember that four previous American presidents had made a commitment to move the American embassy and none of them did. The way that leaders around the world, in the United States, in our diplomatic community arranged themselves against that move and yet President Trump and Ambassador Friedman and our entire team remained resolved to keep our word.
"I am also proud of the fact that it poured a foundation for peace in the region. The breakthrough that was the Abraham Accords signed on the south lawn of the White House in the fall of 2020, I believe was the direct result of the unambiguous commitment of support from the United States of America for the Jewish state of Israel. That's where it all began.
"The decision to move the American embassy, to recognize Jerusalem as the capital, to recognize the Golan Heights – all of the steps that we took, made it possible for nations across the region to recognize that nothing was ever going to change between the United States and Israel, and so it was time to begin the move toward peace.
"And so my hope and my prayer is as this cascade of chaos is taking place around the world in the years ahead the seeds that we sowed in the Abraham Accords will continue to flower into a widening peace and security for the people of Israel and the region as a whole."
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