Until a few months ago, Yariv Levin was still running Israel's parliament. He sat in the Knesset Speaker's bureau, had a big entourage, met with movers and shakers, and as former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's right-hand man he was there at historic moments – the formulation of the Abraham Accords and the friction with the American administration over sovereignty in Judea and Samaria.
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In recent months, he has been sitting in on the benches of the opposition alongside Miri Regev and Aryeh Deri, with no spacious bureau, no entourage, and plenty of political angst.
As opposition whip, he is leading an aggressive line against the coalition and also finds himself up against some of his Likud peers. Last week he made an extraordinary announcement, shaming six other Likud MKs who were absent from a vote, which eventually went the coalition's way.
"I did it with great sorrow, but without hesitation," says Levin. "There was no choice. We not only lost in that vote; we could have won a few votes. The moment that we no longer had the option to win, gave a boost to the coalition. They see that the opposition isn't united.
"Concerning the vote that led me to make that announcement - in that particular week MKs were required to put in only eight hours at the plenum. It's unacceptable if people can't make it to the plenum eight hours in a week."
Q: Did Netanyahu instruct you to make that announcement?
"I coordinated with him based on what he had said at the faction meeting a week earlier," he explained, referring to how Netanyahu admonished MKs for failing to turn up at the Knesset and enabling the coalition to pass votes without a fight.
"We have a responsibility to keep up the fight in opposition. We have a responsibility to come to the Knesset and take part in debates, to vote, to fight. This is necessary to maintain the unity of the opposition. When Likud MKs don't turn up, that causes a lot of anger among our partners. That's not the way to manage an opposition. When there are votes that are important to us, all our partners turn up, but when there are issues that are important to them, we don't turn up."
Q: Why is that happening?
"Perhaps the transition from being ministers to being MKs is difficult for some people. I was Knesset chairman, I know it's not easy, but that's our job. It isn't less honorable to sit in the plenum, to talk from the plenum, to propose legislation. That's what we were elected to do. That's what we receive our salary for. I'm not willing to accept people saying, 'this is beneath me,' or 'this is unpleasant for me,' or 'this is not interesting enough for me.' Anybody who feels like that should leave that leave the Knesset."
Q: Is it laziness?
"It could be laziness. It could be a question of misplaced priorities or just failure to pay attention. But our responsibility is to be there and to fight."
Q: So are you the party telltale?
"I don't accept that definition. Everything is open and aboveboard. My role is to bring together at least 53 MKs from our bloc to stand together united. If we don't do that, the coalition will continue to rule. If we want to bring down the government, then everybody has to turn up. I hope that people have learned the lesson from that incident."
A constant struggle
Q: So what does the opposition whip do?
"A constant struggle to try to achieve two goals: One – to block moves made by the government that we oppose. So far, we have done very well. We managed to bring down some legislation and there are other government-sponsored laws that are stuck thanks to the long debates and filibusters that we have initiated."
Q: Are there issues that you would support the government on; for example, compensation for people affected by the coronavirus pandemic?
"This government is not compensating people for coronavirus. It hurts everyone. If it were to have put forward such a proposal, then we of course would have assisted it and made sure it progressed."
Q: So why did you block the Citizenship Law, which is in line with your ideology?
"The vote on the Citizenship Law enabled us to show the public the problematic nature of this government. The government wanted us to save it from elements within it, and to show the outside world that everything is okay, that the government is functioning. I think shouldn't save the government and create an image that everything is fine because everything is not fine."
As well as blocking moves by the government, we are also investing a lot of effort in expanding the divide that exists within the government so as to bring it down. We saw an example last week when in the Knesset I asked [Interior] Minister Ayelet Shaked, who I see as one of the architects of this government, about several issues that the government is promoting, and which are against her values.
"For example, the Electricity Law, budgets allocated to Ra'am (United Arab List), statements made by [Public Security Minister] Omer Bar-Lev against settlers. I said to her, 'you committed that if there is a clash between your values and what the government is doing, you will bring down the government.' She was very stressed by this question because it makes her confront a big lie."
Q: There have been accusations that because of you, MK Shirly Pinto had to come to the Knesset just six days after giving birth to her daughter.
"When [former Likud MK] Yehuda Glick's wife died [at the beginning of 2018] and they were in opposition, they didn't agree to offset him. [Un 2018] Sharren Haskell came to the plenum with an IV drip because they didn't agree to offset her. The most annoying and upsetting thing is that at the beginning of this term, the sister of MK Meir Yitzhak Halevi from the New Hope Party died. I said that even though, until then, the other side hadn't agreed to offset, we should set out on a new path, and I offset him. Then, at the instruction of [New Hope Chairman] Gideon Sa'ar, he turned up at the plenum.
"Nobody can expect us to just continue to offset. You can't break all the rules of the game, behave brutally, and then say – 'the time has come for us to be considerate of one another.' You can't just take away our representation in the [Knesset] and then ask us to be considerate. They have only themselves to blame."
'A house for all'
Q: Things are not calm within Likud.
"Likud's situation is amazing given that we are no longer in power after 12 years. Most parties take a long time to recover, sometimes it takes years. In the case of Likud, since we've been in opposition, public support has only grown. You can feel it on the street. Likud is the biggest party in Israel with the highest public support, by a big margin from all the other parties"
"In Likud, there are big challenges. You have to be voted in by 130,000 people you have to invest time on the ground and therefore, by the nature of things, there are disputes. There is a mosaic of people and there are disputes. That's what's so beautiful about Likud, that's what strengthens Likud, I'm not worried about disputes.
Q: Perhaps the fact that people like Yuli Edelstein. Katz, Barkat, Regev, Avi Dichter, and others have expressed their desire to bid for the leadership of Likud has created camps.
"What we need to return to power is unity in the ranks. I say to my friends, that all this talk about challenging for the leadership of the movement, be it today, tomorrow, or yesterday, before Netanyahu or after Netanyahu, is damaging and irresponsible, and contributes nothing. What is required of us is to stand up behind Benjamin Netanyahu who brought us such enormous gains and will lead us in the future to further achievements."
Q: Do you expect them to not declare their political ambitions?
"Absolutely. They shouldn't be talking about it; it doesn't do any good for them either."
Q: They are marking themselves out for the future.
"To mark yourself out doesn't mean anything. You have to be elected. People expect you to be responsible and to work on the important things – and that is to work against the government and not to get involved in internal disputes. Instead of debating when we will challenge for the leadership of the movement, we need to be thinking about how we help Netanyahu replace the government. That is realistic and achievable."
Q: Will you run for the leadership?
"That's not something I'm concerned with right now. It's irrelevant. Some people think they need to be busy with themselves. That's something I say to Yuli [Edelstein], to Israel [Katz], to Miri [Regev]to everyone."
Q: Are you saying to them that they are causing harm?
"Yes. Absolutely. It's unnecessary and damaging, both to the Likud and to them personally. It just creates divisions."
Q: What is your position on the use of the ethnicity card in the race for the Likud leadership?
"People who do that are doing something that is not part of the Likud way. It is unacceptable. The beautiful thing about the Likud, going back to the days of [former prime minister Menachem] Begin is that it is a house for all. We look at the person, not what ethnic group or religion they come from."
Q: That's a bit of an exaggeration. Likud is a party where the issue of ethnicity stands out.
"That's not true. When Likud members go to elect their, list the ethnic consideration is almost nonexistent."
Q: In the end, they vote for Ashkenazi men. Look at the top 10 – Israel Katz, Nir Barkat, Yoav Galant, Yuli Edelstein, Gilad Erdan, Levin.
"Placing me in such a category is incorrect and asinine."
Q: You aren't Ashkenazi?
"I wasn't elected because of my ethnicity. I've never felt anything like that. This is a discourse that is not appropriate for the Likud."
Q: Miri Regev said that if Likud continues to vote for leaders with a white DNA, then a real Mizrahi Likud will emerge.
"I think the right thing would be for her to retract what she said which was not at all in the spirit of the Likud. Miri Regev was voted in at a high spot thanks to her capabilities. There is no issue here of ethnicity."
Q: How do you explain that a party whose power base is in the periphery elects an Ashkenazi from Caesarea as its leader?
"This whole discourse is alien to me, and I find it outrageous. People don't categorize themselves by ethnic origin or being from the periphery. They are citizens. They are members of Likud. They love the country. They voted according to capabilities. The attempt to try and portray this component as being dominant does not pass the test of reality."
Q: Perhaps the time has come to refresh the slate?
"It's always good to refresh it It's good to see new forces emerging. Refreshing is important."
Q: Don't you think Likud should bring in a big name?
"Bringing in new blood is always good, but in measure. Of course, you don't want to throw half the faction out. I always supported the chairman of the movement having the ability to be able to give reserved spots to a small number of candidates. Not only to refresh the list; this is also necessary when you come up against parties where one person makes the appointments, which gives them maneuvering room to create collaborations on the eve of the elections. We need a tool like that."
Q: Is there a name that you would bring in?
"I can't see such a name."
'A terrible injustice'
Q: Are you the one that is closest to Netanyahu?
"I feel very close. It's a great privilege to work alongside him for so many years."
Q: Do you talk a lot?
"There are days when we talk many times a day and there are days when we don't. It all depends on what's on the agenda."
Q: Do you also have friendly conversations about family and children?
"Not so much. The weight of things that we have to deal with keeps us very busy. Sometimes we talk about English or Spanish soccer. When we had long meetings into the night and there was a Champions League game on TV, we would watch it together."
Q: Is he able to enjoy life a bit? Does he have time for a breather, to do sports?
"Anybody looking for time to breathe, time to do sports should be looking outside of politics. It's true that after so many years, he now has a little more time to be with the family and that's a good thing but the goal isn't to remain in opposition."
Q: Is he talking about retirement?
"He hasn't said anything like that to me. On the contrary, I see him working very hard."
Q: Is he about to make a plea bargain?
"I don't feel that is the case. But we don't talk about that. On the political side, he is focused on replacing the government."
Q: Is he worried about his trial?
"We have barely discussed it. He knew all along what we all know now – that there is nothing in all these charges, that this is a scandalous case of indictments for non-existent offenses, that there have been mendacious leaks, threats against witnesses, illegitimate decision making and extraneous motivations."
"It's like the details that have emerged in the case of Aryeh Deri where we have seen completely unacceptable behavior. The situation whereby people say 'let's leave a case open for years because perhaps somebody will turn up and we'll be able to stick a charge on someone, somewhere, is appropriate for dark regimes. A terrible injustice was done to Deri and a terrible injustice is being done to Netanyahu."
Q: Why do you think it happened to them of all people?
"It's a combination of two things: One, the court system is controlled by a minority group, many of whom have radical left-wing opinions, and they cannot come to terms with the fact that the people do not support their positions. The second factor is personal motivations. They say to themselves: If I can file an indictment against the prime minister, I will always be remembered as someone who managed to put a prime minister on trial, that will be part of my record. If I say there is nothing, who will even remember that I was in the picture."
Q: Is that Attorney General Avichai Mendelblit's motivation?
"I don't want to talk about names. The problem is systemic. Anybody who thinks that if we replace the Attorney General or the Supreme Court President, all our problems will be solved, is wrong. There is a systemic problem here, namely that they elect themselves. There is no oversight."
Q: You've been in power for 12 years, you have no one else to blame but yourselves.
"We have failed miserably on this issue. For years, I fought for fundamental changes in the legal system, but I never managed to enlist the majority required to take the necessary measures. The battle that I led was an enormous achievement on the way to generating public support and understanding for an issue that wasn't on the agenda.
"Today people understand that this is something important and that if we don't deal with it, then we haven't done anything and it will be impossible to run the state. I am convinced that today the necessary public understanding exists and that the demand for change is so strong that if we return to power, we will have the 61 votes necessary to make the change. Even in the coalition, there is a not-insignificant number of MKs who understand that the situation is intolerable. Ministers see that they can't work because of legal restrictions."
Q: Do you think removing the security detail from the Netanyahu family was the right thing to do?
"The threats against the Netanyahu family are real. You don't have to be a security expert to see the kind of stuff that is being put out on social media."
Q: But that was the position of the Shin Bet.
"I have enormous respect for the Shin Bet but sometimes they too make mistakes, and there are failures. The decision not to continue providing security to the Netanyahu family is a huge risk that the security professionals have taken upon themselves and a risk that government ministers have taken upon themselves. Their deep-rooted hatred for Netanyahu stops them from being able to look beyond their noses and does not enable them to see the existing dangers. I really hope that nothing will happen."
Q: Some have claimed that the Netanyahu family simply wanted to be able to enjoy the benefits that come with having a security detail.
"Having a car is not the issue. Period. There is a real problem. I suggest no that no one takes it lightly.
"It's the same thing as how people spoke for years about the prime minister's residence being wonderful and saying that the Netanyahu family were making all sorts of demands. Anybody who has been there knows that the place is in shameful condition. Suddenly Bennett arrives and tens of millions are spent. Suddenly, the place is renovated in Bennett's honor. This is intolerable hypocrisy It is shameful and pitiful behavior."
'Fed up with elections'
Q: Likud failed four times to put together a government and the polls haven't really changed. How do you plan to return to power?
"The great Menachem Begin lost eight elections until he managed to win at the ninth effort. You can't be shortsighted and impatient. Netanyahu brought the Likud 12 consecutive years in power. He may not have managed to achieve a majority in the last elections, but that is nothing compared with the period in which he bought us to power. Today as well, we would receive at least 30 seats and that is an incredible result. It is stability that is unparalleled in the political system. You have to have a bit of patience. There is a big chance that we will return to power under Netanyahu's leadership."
Q: How? What has changed?
"The big problem in the elections was that many Likud supporters didn't turn up to vote. I hear them today saying they made a mistake."
Q: Didn't they understand that the first time, the second time, the third time?
"People were fed up with elections. They felt that even if there was another government it wouldn't be the end of the world. Today, they see the implications of having another government. If we reach a high level of turnout among our public, that will be enough to change the picture."
"The longer this government remains in power, the greater the disappointment will be. An act of fraud like Yamina committed in the last elections won't repeat itself. You can see in the polls that Likud is getting stronger. The bloc is getting stronger. We aren't at 61 seats yet, but there are things that it is difficult to see in polls. I am optimistic."
Q: Without Netanyahu, you would be able to put together a government.
"That's not true. The assumption that if Netanyahu isn't there, then everybody will give up on their desire to be prime minister or to hold the reins of power, and simply hand them over as a gift to Likud is wrong. [Yamina leader Naftali] Bennett and [New Hope leader Gideon] Sa'ar are playing personal politics. They have no interest in crowning someone from Likud. Without Netanyahu, Likud will fall apart."
Q: Can you see yourself joining forces with Prime Minister Naftali Bennett's Yamina party the future?
"I don't believe in ruling anyone out, I've never ruled anyone out, assuming that they are willing to sit in our government, which will operate in our way."
Q: So after all the mudslinging and arguments, Bennett and Shaked can still be partners?
"Bennet and Shaked won't be our partners in the next government because they won't pass the electoral threshold and they will be irrelevant."
Q: And if they do pass the electoral threshold, will you boycott them?
"I won't send anyone to sit beyond the fence. The government must be led by the Likud and by Netanyahu. We will be willing to sit and negotiate with anyone who is elected to the Knesset and is willing to accept our way. If Bennett, Shaked, and Sa'ar pass the electoral threshold, they will go into a left-wing government. They don't want to be with us."
Q: Can you see yourself sitting with Benny Gantz?
"He can be a partner in the government but Netanyahu must be prime minister."
Q: Netanyahu is willing to give him the premiership if he dissolves the current coalition.
"If my opinion is heard, I don't think there is any room for setting up a government headed by Benny Gantz. That is my position. We need to set up a government that will allow us to operate in our way. It won't be possible to make changes to the legal system with Benny Gantz."
Q: Can Sa'ar and Ze'ev Elkin return to the Likud?
"No. The Likud's door is closed to them. They will disappear in the next elections."
Q: Would you consider cooperating with Avigdor Liberman?
"He isn't willing to sit in a government led by Netanyahu. The responsibility for the fact that we do not have a right-wing government is on his shoulders."
Q: Will Amichai Chikli join Likud?
"He is an exemplary public figure who stands up for his values and is willing to pay the price. I would like to see him and other people of values like him in Likud."
Q: Are you talking with him? Are you doing anything to move that forward?
"No, at the moment we aren't talking about how the Likud will look. The question is whether he wants to forge an independent path or join Likud. He is clean and straight, completely unlike his colleagues in the faction whose behavior is shameful."
Q: If Ayelet Shaked, Nir Orbach, or someone else were to bring down the government would they have a place in Likud?
"Ayelet Shaked has no place in Likud. If we were asked to take into our ranks one single MK so that they could bring down the government, then the cost could be worth it, under certain circumstances. What's more, I don't judge Shaked and others equally. Shaked's responsibility for the formation of the current government is greater than that of anyone else. Therefore, I would unequivocally oppose her joining Likud."
Q: "As a former Knesset speaker, what do you think of the behavior of the current speaker Mickey Levy?
"It is a complex and difficult job, and it would not be appropriate for me to criticize him. The role of the Knesset speaker is to make sure that the rules of the game enable the Knesset to function. For example, on the matter of equitable division of the committees, Mickey Levy has made an effort to prevent some of the coalition's decisions but from the moment things were done in the way they were [the opposition was not given appropriate representation] the Knesset has not returned to being the Knesset it used to be. The Knesset today is very different from the Knesset in my time. It is in a bad place."
Q: You attack the government less than your colleagues.
"I attack it all the time, perhaps not at the same temperature and using the same phrasing."
Q: We haven't heard you calling the prime minister a fraud.
"What Bennett and Shaked did is fraud by definition. I attack the government more than anyone else."
Q: Ra'am leader Mansour Abbas says that 'the State of Israel is a Jewish state. Perhaps he could have been a suitable partner for your government?
"Setting up a government with Ra'am (United Arab List) is absolute madness, no one ever thought to do that. I'm not sorry about it for a moment. While it's important to bring in the leadership of the Arab public in Israel on matters connected to the Arab community, such as crime, setting up a government that leans on them is a different story altogether. It's absolute madness. Complete abandon."
Q: Netanyahu went to talk with the Bedouins in the south. His people spoke with Ra'am
"We tried to persuade Ra'am not to join a government with the other side. At no stage did we consider setting up a government leaning on Ra'am. On this matter, we were in accord with [Religious Zionist party leader Bezalel] Smotrich. In conversations with him, we said explicitly that there is no option to form a government that leans on Ra'am. That would be a government that cannot function and remain in power and it would abandon Israel's security."
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"But Smotrich's declaration that there would be no government with Ra'am was a big mistake. It was a tactical error in negotiations that gave Bennett the option to justify his move."
Q: We are now discovering that relations with President Donald Trump weren't so good after all. In Barak Ravid's book, Trump says he was the one to stop sovereignty.
The main reason I am in politics is to strengthen our hold on the Land of Israel. That is a great vision, the most important thing we can do in our generation. What we managed to do with the Trump administration was an enormous achievement on a historic scale. For the first time, the issue of sovereignty was on the table as an official policy of the state of Israel. It was the first time that the American administration discussed this with us seriously.
"We were on the verge of the historic achievement of applying sovereignty to all the communities in Judea and Samaria, a huge achievement. But we found ourselves in an unforgivable situation where many of the settlement leadership instead of coming to us and doing everything possible to take advantage of this opportunity, acted to shoot the move down. They mendaciously claimed that we agreed to the establishment of a Palestinian state.
"The Americans told us that even the settlement leadership doesn't want it so they did a U-turn. It's a terrible thing. Shamefully, the person who headed the front was the chairman of the Judea and Samaria Council. Where were all the settlement leaders? They need to ask forgiveness from the people of Israel. from the settlers, and Netanyahu."
Q: According to the book, Trump also cursed Netanyahu.
"The way the interview was presented was tendentious. There is enormous trust between Trump and Netanyahu. Naturally, there were differences of opinion, but the final result was incredible for both of them, Trump and Netanyahu, and the Arab leaders changed the Middle East, they brought about an enormous change. They deserved the Nobel Peace Prize. The fact that they didn't puts the world's hypocrisy there for all to see."
