As is well known, you are one of the main contributors to the success of the negotiations that led to the Abraham Accords. Can you give us a little bit of background. How did the whole thing begin? And if you don't mind, how did you end up with this fantastic gig?
So, thank you for having me, it is good to meet and speak and talk about a very exciting journey. I actually came sort of in an unfamiliar trajectory. I met Jared Kushner at a Pesach program in Arizona in 2011, playing basketball. So it wasn't even at the buffet, but actually on the basketball court and I didn't know who he was at the time, but we got talking and we won a few games together and after that he offered me to come work for him at Kushner Companies, and the rest has been a very very exciting history. So as it relates to the Middle East team, I began working after being on the campaign, I joined the White House as Jared Kushner's assistant and then ultimately took over for Jason Greenblatt when he left the special representative role. The president, who deserves the lion share of the credit for this deal, and Jared Kushner as well, told the team in 2017 to put out a peace plan, one that would really resolve the conflict. Not just pretend to do so. The team at the time was Jared, Jason Greenblatt, Ambassador David Friedman and myself. We tried to put forth a plan that was realistic. That actually took into account the realities on the grounds, and had a chance of success, and in doing so, when we were actually going to the region, Jared would meet with foreign leaders and their main sort of message to him was, "This has gone on for too long." And it wasn't just in the UAE and Bahrain, it was throughout the region. They are tired of it, and they would like to see a realistic proposal, and if they did see one, they would be open to potentially normalizing relations with Israel. And I think that is a very important sentiment, because it is sort of hard to know if there is real animosity between parties when a conflict has gone on as long as it has, and in some scenarios, there is real animosities, but a lot of people just want better lives, and to get to know one another to move past the conflict. And so by putting out the plan what I think Jared was able to do, was set up a scenario whereby the Palestinians were given a realistic opportunity, unfortunately, since December 2017 when the president announced that we would be recognizing Jerusalem as the capital and moving our embassy there, they decided to no longer engage with us, and I am the person who is responsible to engage with them, so I can tell you it's sort of a complicated situation, but ultimately that inability or unwillingness to engage was seen by a lot regional partners as an inappropriate way to handle discourse. If you disagree with someone, the best way to make that known, in our opinion, is to engage. And a lot of our regional partners agreed. And I apologize for a long answer, but by setting up this groundwork, we were really able to put out a plan, show the world that Israel is willing to make peace, and then actually show the world that Israel can make peace, and did make peace with UAE and Bahrain, and so it is a very exciting opportunity, and we are glad that it came when it did.
Regarding the Abraham Accords, what were the main hurdles, and when in the process did you think that this might actually work?
So I have somebody on my team whose name is Scott Leith. Every single day when he would come in, we had sort of a game, in which we would say what percentage do you think the chances that we are going to get this deal done. And this is during July and August. And we rarely got higher than 85%. And he is a very optimistic person, and I am optimistic, but these deals are so complex and they have so many components to them, that it is hard to know with any real degree of certainty that you have accomplished something. As I have said, until I was sitting in the Oval Office with the president and Jared and hearing the president talking to the leaders, going through the actual celebration of it, did I really allow myself to believe that it would happen. And even then, I will be honest with you, that to me wasn't when the deal was done. It was done on Sept. 15th, when it was actually signed at the White House. You know, these things can drag out, and they can get lost.
There have been so many failed efforts at Middle East peace. And so many predictions of a new Middle East going back to the 1990s that blew up in our faces. What do you think was different, what did you guys do differently this time that made it work?
I don't know a lot of the people who have worked on those deals in the past. Just passing hellos in hallways. I am always hesitant to judge how they did and how we did differently because I don't know enough to be a relevant critic. What I do know specifically as it relates to our work. I would say Jared Kushner and the president. The president wasn't necessarily involved in the day-to-day back and forth, but what we were negotiating with was the capital that he built. The relationships that he created with the leaders in the region, by standing behind Israel with the Jerusalem move, with the Golan move, with leaving the Iran deal, things of that variety where the people of Israel but mostly the leadership of Israel was able to see that there was a partner, a real ally, somebody who stood behind his word, and then similar with the UAE. In addition to leaving the Iran deal, numerous other things that didn't become public, but ways that we have interacted with them, to show them that we were good-faith actors. And so using that relationship, that president created that was what made this possible, but then on the sort of negotiating the day-to-day level that was led by Jared and then myself, I think it was honesty. I think it was a real sense that the person across was someone you could really trust and even if Israel and the UAE didn't know each other, they knew each other but didn't have the degree of comfort with one another that I think is very important when making a deal. And so I really believe that it was the trust they have in Jared and myself. I would like to believe that we are very honest people. I think that was ultimately the main sticking point in how this deal was actually able to get done.
The accords and the Trump vision are not the same thing. Do you see the accords as part and parcel of that vision, as somehow completing, or is there a little bit of tension between them? One of the advantages that many in Israel saw in the vision was the extension of Israeli law to certain parts of Judea and Samaria, which is now suspended. So how do you see that playing out? Is that part of the Trump vision off the table for now, or was that leverage to get the accords?
As part of the honesty component, it is important to keep the timeline here. When the plan was put out it was put out because the administration has a fundamental belief on the best realistic way to resolve this conflict. And the vision for peace is the administration's position and it remains its position. The notion of applying Israeli law to areas of the West Bank, it is not something that we fundamentally disagree with, in fact it is something that we fundamentally would support. But after doing that, but after putting out that vision, what became apparent was that in order to capitalize on this momentous historic opportunity, it was necessary to suspend a component of the vision for peace. Now that is not to say that in the foreseeable future it could not come back and it is not to say that we fundamentally disagree with what our position was initially, and in fact we still stand behind that position and it is very important to us, and I think everyone should understand that, but understanding that certain opportunities arise when they do and taking advantage to capitalize on them, i.e. the Abraham Accords, was also paramount in this case. So it's a complicated way of saying the vision for peace is the Trump administration's plan, it is something that we will always stand behind, and it is my sincere hope that we have the opportunity to stand behind it for the next four years, and work toward its implementation. However for the time being the application of Israeli law has been suspended so that we can focus on capitalizing on normalization and peace agreements.
It would be great if you had another four years to see the vision through. What do you think is the danger of a different administration that might have different views toward Israel and Iran and the Middle East, in terms of how the vision will play out, in terms of the success of the accords going forward?
So it's something that I think everybody in my position would have to contend with the possibility that someone else would come in and have a different foreign policy agenda or thought process. I was appreciative when the Biden camp put out a positive statement of support of the accords, because it actually showed that this is something that has bipartisan support in the US, which helps ensure that the Abraham Accords will have a future that extends beyond however long our time in government is. And that is extraordinarily important. And whether I am in government or not, it is always my pleasure and honor to help with whomever is working to advance that goal, because it is something that is not administration-specific in my mind, it is something that is just good. And so things that are good should be pursued ideally and it is something that I hope to always be proud of that it continues and I hope more countries come aboard, whether we are here or not. I don't feel a sense of ownership that it has to be us, that are the ones that make peace. As long as more peace is happening, that would be a great thing. As it relates to the vision for peace, you know the criticism is at least helpful because it shows you where other administrations would potentially lean. And specifically the Iran deal, the other side has criticized us for leaving it, so it is at least reasonable to deduce that it is something that they consider to have been a success, despite what we consider to be a large amount of evidence to point in the opposite direction. I am nervous, if I am just being completely honest, that a different administration, would continue to pursue sort of an appeasement-type strategy with Iran and whether its intention is so or not, it is hard to imagine that that would not have negative ramifications on the normalization efforts. Because even if it could sort of behind-the-scenes cause Israel and its regional partners to feel more aligned, the US is the US, and having a strong US with I think the moral clarity in the region, to put forward what is the best interest of the US but also what is the best interest of the US and also the best interest of Israel, does create opportunities like the one we were able to seize upon thanks to the president and Jared, of the Abraham Accords. And I think that if you are in a world where the US is isolating its partners and allies in the Middle East, it becomes a lot more difficult to capitalize in the ways that we were able to, and so that is just a significant fear of mine that I hope would never be realized, because I think it could not be more important that President Trump be the one in charge of these things.
Which countries might be next?
That is the question that I get asked most. If I were someone who went to dinner parties, that would be the type of thing that I would be hit with most. Luckily I have been able to avoid meeting too many people. We are in negotiations with a few other countries, right now, time is obviously a relevant component. The beauty of the UAE deal, what was so instrumental about it coming to fruition was the fact that nobody knew about it outside of a very select group of people that worked for Jared and then on the Israeli and UAE side as well. And the surprise factor wasn't just because it allowed us to frame what the actual deal was, in reality, because sometimes what happens is that somebody doesn't like a component of something so that they would just leak out that, which will make it seem like the deal is worse than it actually is, so in addition to that component it also allowed the parties to speak freely amongst each other and if you were to ask us at a specific snapshot it's sort of like us the story I mentioned earlier with Scott, you know we were at 65 percent, you might think that things were going in a bad way, when really, that's just how deals go. They take time and they are up and down and complicated, and I have obviously seen the news stories about Sudan and Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Oman, and other countries as well, but I prefer to allow whichever countries we may be talking with the privacy to actually really have these free discussions without the fear of things being leaked in ways that could harm the deals.
I had zero expectations of actually getting an answer to that question. I was just checking your diplomatic skills. You passed with flying colors. You are a young guy? How are you going to top this?
I think about that too. You know, I guess the question almost requires almost arrogance that I have done so much. I have been part of a tremendous team of people who have made my element to this accomplishment possible, specifically the president and Jared Kushner, who I have mentioned a few times, but I have just such respect and appreciation to him, he really deserves so much credit. I also deal with a lot of the media that he gets, so I see the criticisms that he gets. It is sort of mind-boggling, when you compare the amount of success that he has had, to absurdity of the criticism, without them coming back on the flip side when he actually helps makes peace in the Middle East, so I'll just take that quick second to congratulate him but as it relates to me, I just, I think about these things a lot, I hope that I will be forever surrounded by as many smart and accomplished people as I have been up until this point so that I can continue to grow with them and accomplish more things.
