This past year, Yesh Atid leader Yair Lapid has lost two good friends and political partners. One was Benny Gantz, and the second was Ofer Shelah.
"I want to tell you something, if we've mentioned Yom Kippur. In the first blow, when Blue and White broke up and Gantz and [Gabi] Ashekenazi joined the government, I felt very betrayed. I was angry at myself. I said to myself, you trust people, how many more times are you going to get screwed because you trust people. I thought about that a lot.
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"Ultimately, I reached an agreement with myself that I would continue to put my trust in people and sometimes suffer for it because I prefer that over a life of suspicion and paranoia and always looking over my shoulder. I saw what that did to Netanyahu. It taints the soul and causes you to suspect everyone, all the time. I prefer to trust and sometimes fall," Lapid says.
"I'm not an innocent. I've been in politics for enough years, and I'm learning a lesson. But I decided I don't regret putting my faith in people who then betrayed me."
Q: Ofer Shelah, you No. 2 in Yesh Atid, betrayed your trust, too.
"That's not the same thing. Someone I've known for 30 years isn't like someone you've known a year. Out of respect for Ofer I'm not making any comparison to what happened with Benny and Gabi."
Q: Have you spoken to him since his announcement?
"Not yet. Experience has taught me that you need to let the dust die down. We work in the same building, and I guess we'll talk at some point."
Q: You know that some are claiming this is all for show, that his move has given you a lot of media exposure and contradicts claims about Yesh Atid being a 'dictatorial' party. You've been friends for 30 years, and you're both savvy media people.
"We don't put on shows like this. I'm too fair a person to play with Israelis' heads like that."
Q: Shelah chose to make his move in the most personal way possible. He went around to all the TV studios and laid into you, saying that the party didn't 'belong' to you.
"I would have acted differently."
Q: He stabbed you in the back.
"I don't use those terms."
Q: What terms do you use?
"We have someone with political ambition, and he said so, out loud. The way I see it, more than anything else it was an expression of belief in Yesh Atid and its success. No one tries to improve his standing in the minor parties. Because we're a viable governing alternative, there is someone who is issuing a challenge. It makes sense."
Q: You've announced that there will not be open party primaries.
"Right. I don't want to see things like people 'buying' votes. In 2021 we'll hold a party conference and everyone will have the chance to run against me, and I believe I'll stay on as party leader. I just don't know what Netanyahu will do now, since he's always calling our party a 'dictatorship.'"
Q: Is it possible Shleash will go and set up a left-wing bloc?
"It's possible."
Q: Does he have enough electoral power?
"Not really."
Q: How many of your personal secrets does he know?
"None."
Q: And political secrets?
"I have no problem with that. People used to tell me that we should hire a firm to secure our information. I said I had a better idea: talk nicely on the phone and write nicely to each other."
Q: Will he stay in Yesh Atid?
"I don't know. It's up to him. It seems as if things are heading in another direction."
Q: What regrets do you have about this past year?
"That my dad died. He wanted me to have 'He did his best' engraved on his headstone. I sat with him at Ichilov [Hospital] for four days before he died. I told him, 'Dad, we could write something better. You were deputy prime minister. Your life story ….' He told me, 'You're wrong. It's the best thing to say about someone.'
"This year, I did the best I could for something I believed in: a different government, change, to improve my children's situation. I don't regret anything. I would have wanted the results to be different."
Q: Whose forgiveness did you need to seek?
"Hussein Abbas, an Arab guy who works at the home where my autistic daughter lives. There were eight residents there who were put into quarantine, autistic kids with mid-to-high-level functioning. He spent two weeks of August in that home, in a protective suit. Sometimes he'd turn on the radio and hear the prime minister saying that he isn't a citizen of Israel, that his vote isn't counted, and that they didn't want to hear about his problems. I suggest we all ask for forgiveness from Hussein Abbas."
'We need a low-budget government'
Q: What else did you learn this past year? About the country? The government?
"One of the messages Netanyahu has been sending all these years is that everything is amazing, everything is wonderful. Then COVID comes and teaches us that the situation isn't excellent, and because we thought it was, the government systems became atrophied and aren't functioning."
Q: Netanyahu would say otherwise, that until COVID, diplomacy, security, and the economy really were excellent, and then the pandemic hit the entire world.
"Israel always argues that it's an exceptional case, that we can't be compared to any other country. But COVID allowed that comparison. It was the same virus all over the world, the emergency economic directives were the same everywhere, and the only difference between the countries that managed to handle COVID and the ones that didn't was the leadership."
"The prime minister of New Zealand, Jacinda Ardern, who is 40 years old, handled COVID better than Netanyahu did. The prime minister of Finland, who is 34, handled it better than Netanyahu. Germany, France, Sweden, everyone handled it better than Netanyahu."
Q: You forget that the Israeli public doesn't follow instructions. Hassidim, Tel Avivians, Arabs. Even if there are 14 Yair Lapids in the prime minister's seat, we won't get past this if the public continues to ignore the rules.
"During the first lockdown, Israelis were super disciplined. Not because there was no fear, but because they understood what they were facing. I was just in Nahariya, where they have an amazing surf beach. According to the rules [prior the institution of the lockdown that took effect on the eve of Rosh Hashanah] people can go to the beach, but not go in the water. But they can exercise if they're alone. They're confused. No one is telling them what to do, because no one knows. It isn't being handled right."
Q: Do you really think you could have done it differently?
"Sure. First of all, I'd set up a government with 18 ministers rather than 36. Look what's happening with unemployment: the issue is split between four ministries – economy, welfare, the Treasury, and the Prime Minister's Office. You can't handle it seriously that way.
"In addition, I don't have indictments to worry about. Basically, I get up in the morning and go to work on this crisis. The government isn't working on it. They're busy fighting, and with Netanyahu's legal matters."
Q: What should Netanyahu have done that he didn't?
"We needed a low-budget government, without a minister of water or a community minister. There was no need to look for a 'corona czar.' Years ago, Israel decided that the Defense Ministry would oversee non-military emergency situations, too. They have the Home Front Command, the National Emergency Management Authority, and more. The authority [for the COVID crisis] should have been transferred to the Defense Ministry. We needed a public outreach center rather than the prime minister making speeches about how wonderful he is. Every day there should have experts explaining the regulations to the public in a calm, quiet manner they could understand.
"After that, I would have set up a model like the traffic light plan, with flexible, localized closures at the neighborhood level, with focus on at-risk populations. I would call up 50,000 reservists to handle contact tracing. I would send medical students to back up laboratory staff.
"I would pass a budget in my first month. A budget is a work plan for the ministries. In the first two weeks I would also make appointments for the top positions: police commissioner, state attorney. There are a bunch of positions that are unfilled."
Q: What did you think of the flagrant violations of public health rules by the anti-Netanyahu protesters?
"I didn't like the party. It was a party, not a protest. But it's completely legitimate for good, patriotic Israelis to go out and protest on bridges because they're worried about the fate of their country. As long as they follow the rules."
Q: The protests outside the Prime Minister's Residence didn't follow the rules, which led to a slippery slope.
"That isn't what led to a slippery slope, that's nonsense from Netanyahu. What led to the slippery slope was the government itself not taking the rules seriously, including some of the prime minister's advisors. Anyone who violates the regulations is wrong. The rules protect [the public's] health."
Q: It's easy to be the opposition leader at a time like this.
"I'm willing to hand that job to Netanyahu and take over his current position."
Q: If Netanyahu came to you now and asked you to join the government, would you?
"He's already approached me a few times. I could be talking to you now as acting prime minister and foreign minister. But I promised the people not to join a government under Netanyahu, because he cannot be prime minister while under indictment. That was my promise to the public, and when I make a commitment to something, I take it seriously."
'Benny betrayed the idea'
Q: Your wife, Lihi, said that you became close friends with Benny Gantz and his wife. It ended suddenly.
"I believed what Benny said … but long before he betrayed me, he betrayed an idea that was much bigger. People cast ballots on which a big idea is written – Right or Left, peace or war, socialism or capitalism – something important. A person who cast a ballot for Blue and White, with the promise that [the party] wouldn't join a Netanyahu government, loses his faith in politicians even more. There was a violation here, I don't know how long it will take to recover."
Q: They saved the country from a fourth election.
"We had a very clear plan: to appoint Meir Cohen as Knesset speaker, pass a law that would bar someone under indictment from running for prime minister, and everything looked different. All we needed to do was to hold on for another week. It's reasonable to expect a [former] chief of staff to be able to hold up under pressure."
Q: What really happened?
"It started Tuesday evening. We, the 'cockpit,' met and we made the plan … On Wednesday morning I was sitting in my office at the Knesset, Meir [Cohen] came in and said, 'I have a bad feeling.' I said, 'Why are you bugging me,' we planned everything out last night. It's all settled. He said, 'You'll see.'
"I told him and few other people who were in the room to take out 50 shekels each, and we'd bet on it. Looking back, I can say that Meir Cohen isn't the Knesset speaker, but he's richer by 200 shekels.
"From there, I went to a meeting of the Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee. In the middle of it, Benny's secretary came in and said he needed me urgently. It never occurred to me that this was what was going to happen. I went into his office, and he told me, 'I decided to take on the role of Knesset speaker,' and that was it. I said, 'So you decided to break up Blue and White.' We argued for a few minutes, and I said, 'I don't understand you, you're making a serious mistake.' I saw that his decision was final and I left. I only met with him for six minutes.
"Outside, I met [Avi] Nissankoren. I told him, 'You know that Benny just broke up Blue and White?' I saw he knew. I told him, 'You'll be sorry a lot sooner than you think,' and left. I know they're sorry much sooner than they thought."
Q: As you were leaving, were you thinking, 'They screwed me?'
"Not personally. I thought about the huge organization and all the thousands of people who followed two chiefs of staff who promised them something and went back on that promise."
Q: People talk about Gantz being a good guy, who really wanted to serve the country.
"That's exactly why I can't believe he showed such weakness. It's not characteristic of a chief of staff. The result is that people are saying, 'It doesn't matter whom I vote for, some politician will dupe me.' That's a dangerous feeling, and Benny and Gabi don't understand that they're playing with that fundamental thing. I can understand why the public is saying 'All politicians are liars,' but I'm not a liar. What I promised, I did."
Q: Was the Yesh Atid-Blue and White joint slate a mistake?
"There was no alternative. I couldn't have forgiven myself if I hadn't tried to unite all the players to create a change for Israel. If tomorrow I had the opportunity to bring everyone together, I would do it again, but with one big difference – everything would be under me."
Q: Do you ever feel schadenfreude when you see how Netanyahu humiliates Gantz?
"I don't understand why he stays. It's obvious that Netanyahu won't honor the rotation agreement. It's clear that Gantz isn't able to implement what he wants to do. This government is a disaster. Even those who supported Blue and White joining the Likud government thinks it's a disaster. It was over when Netanyahu stood up in court, with his people in masks behind him, and announced that there was no longer rule of law in Israel. It was over when he totally failed in handling COVID. All that remains of Gantz's political career now is because Bibi is prime minister."
Q: Does it make you happy?
"Not at all. There's no such thing. The late Ori Orbach said that his preferred sin was schadenfreude. My preferred sin is carbohydrates. Seriously – I'm sorry to see it, and I'm waiting for them to come to their senses."
Q: Will you ever work with Gantz again?
"I'll work with anyone who comes to fix Israeli politics."
Q: Plenty of people have defected from the parties that opposed Netanyahu. In Blue and White there was Gantz, Ashkenazi, Zvi Hauser, and Yoaz Hendel. In Meretz-Labor-Gesher there was Orly Levy-Abekasis. They called them Trojan horses. How could that have happened?
"It happens when you have no values. The group you just mentioned doesn't control my values. I do. One of Benny's more pathetic remarks was 'there are principles that are right for the moment.' That's wrong. Principles should be right all the time, not for the moment."
Q: Are things going better with just you and [Telem leader Moshe] Ya'alon?
"The ties with [Ya'alon] are a major compensation. He is fair and honest. We're two very different people, who get along easily. Certainly, he adds value. He has a wealth of defense and security experience. When the issue of the sale of the F35 to the UAE was revealed, whom do you think I consulted? Bogie Ya'alon."
Q: He is obsessed with the submarines affair.
"It's described as an obsession in order to avoid talking about how a lethal weapon that could change the balance of power in the Mediterranean and the Red Sea has been sold to an Arab state. There are constant attempts to attack him, which only shows that he has a strong public image when it comes to national security. You can't not take him seriously. He could also have been a top-ranking minister, but he stayed true to his principles."
Q: Would you want [former IDF Chief of Staff] Gadi Eizenkot as your No. 2?
"I'd be very happy if someone like Eizenkot entered politics, and I'd be even happier if he joined Yesh Atid. He'll make a decision in his own time."
Q: Would you give up the top spot to him?
"There won't be any scenario like that."
Q: It turns out that chiefs of staff don't make the best politicians.
"After three elections, people are realizing that political toughness is something you learn with time. I have experience. I won't give in to Bibi."
'Everyone except extremists'
Q: Do you really believe that you'll be prime minister one day?
"The next government will be formed according to different boundaries that anything we've known. Politics and the media are lagging far behind Israeli society. Society is telling politicians and the media, 'Get off our backs, we don't care about Right and Left, religion and state. What we care about right now is the economic fallout from COVID.
"The next government will be one that puts all these issues aside and takes care of COVID and the economy. That government could include Haredim, Arabs, the national religious, secularists, right-wingers and left-wingers. Everyone. Anyone who tells me they're willing to put all other issues aside, except for two red lines: rule of law and no pandering to sectors."
Q: Do you really expect the Haredim to join you?
"If I approach the Haredim and tell them I am better able to handle Elad or Betar Illit, I'm sure they won't care about the old Israeli issues. This is a new situation.
"The next government will say: For the next two years, we'll be handling COVID and the economy. We'll cut unemployment, work to get Israel out of the economic disaster, put all the disputes – which we need to hold, but not is not the time – on hold. Issues like religion and state, the two-state solution vs. one state, capitalism vs. socialism – all that can wait, because we are in the midst of a crisis, and an ad hoc government will handle it. I'll present a work plan and everyone is welcome to join."
Q: How does that idea square with what we're seeing in the polls?
"I'm not impressed by the numbers right now. I don't know what will happen in the next election."
Q: We do know, more or less.
"No, we don't … The next election will take place after a difficult winter, after everyone will know that Netanyahu failed."
Q: So theoretically, we could see you, YIsrael Beytenu leader Avigdor Lieberman, and Yamina leader Naftali Bennett together?
"Yes."
Q: So let's say you have Bennett and Lieberman. You'd still be far from a majority.
"I told you, I'm not getting into a debate about the numbers. I'm willing to hold discussions about a coalition six hours after I know the election results."
Q: Would Lieberman join a government with Arab parties?
"Anyone who wants to address COVID and the economy, except for extremists. If, for example, Itamar Ben-Gvir makes it past the minimum [3.25%] threshold, we won't be able to bring him in. Heba Yazbak from the Joint Arab List is also an extremist."
Q: That doesn't sound like it will work out.
"I'll reach out to everyone. I know that at this time, we need a different government, that behaves differently and handles problems differently. I feel like COVID and the economic crisis are an opportunity to wipe the slate clean and see how we can talk to each other."
Q: In all that 'together,' is there a chance of joining Netanyahu?
"No. He is under indictment."
Q: Someone else from the Likud?
"Certainly. If I form a government and Netanyahu isn't there [in the Likud], the first call I'll make will be to the Likud. They're the closest to us, ideologically."
'We can beat Netanyahu'
Q: Bennett, whom you have pointed to as a potential partner, recently said in a TV interview that you are 'programmed to hate' and that you 'lie about and incite against the Haredim.'
"Sorry for not getting worked up over that. I appreciate Naftali Bennett, he's doing good work these days. The problem is that in the end, he'll join a Netanyahu government. For that reason, Netanyahu is focusing on me, not him. He knows they belong to the same camp, and that Bennett will ultimately join him."
Q: If Bennett wins more seats that you, will you join a government under his leadership?
"We'll talk about that after the election results are in."
Q: What do you think about the disappearance of the Labor Party?
"I suppose it frees up a few seats that will move to us. What happened to Labor is that for some years now, it hasn't been clear what the party stands for. Likud is opting for nationalism over liberalism, and Yesh Atid insists on a balance between Judaism and democracy. Labor? It's no longer clear what it represents. That's probably one of the reasons why it collapsed."
Q: Netanyahu has been prime minister for 11 years straight. Would you say he's unbeatable?
"That's not true. One of the optimistic things I'm taking from this year is that we beat Netanyahu twice. True, the political step that would replace him wasn't taken, but in terms of ideas, organization, the results on the ground – we beat him twice. Twice, my name was on the ballot that defeated him. We can beat him. It's possible."
Q: Netanyahu's voters are mostly from the 'second Israel.' Can Yair Lapid from north Tel Aviv win over voters in Netivot and Beit Shean?
"We are fanned out nationwide. We have people in Ofakim, there are mayors from Yesh Atid in Arad, Karmiel, all over the country."
Q: Still, most of your voters are from Tel Aviv and the upper-middle-class towns to its east.
"That is changing, and in the next election it will change dramatically. For years, we would go to the periphery and hear about how the economic situation was better than it was a decade ago. When we go to the periphery ahead of the next election, the situation will be worse than it ever was, and it will be clear to everyone that Netanyahu is responsible."
