A full 22 minutes pass between the time I turn on the tape recorder and the first time I manage to squeeze in a question. Outgoing Transportation Minister Bezalel Smotrich breaks down the political events of the past two weeks without missing a beat.
"What [Prime Minister] Netanyahu did didn't humiliate me, it humiliated the values I represent and tried to silence the public I represent. I have hundreds of messages from Likud members saying they'll never vote for the Likud again because of what happened.
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"Personally, it's as if I lost out – I could be peacocking around right now with a ministry and a driver, but I don't care about that. I'm zealous about the religious Zionist worldview," he says.
"I'm at peace with the decision to join the opposition," Smotrich says. "It's the right decision. We couldn't allow ourselves to join the coalition with Netanyahu's humiliating, contemptuous attitude. I heard him say that he wasn't closing the door on us joining, but he never opened it. There wasn't a single meeting to negotiate, not one."
"There were conversations on Zoom. We didn't even sit in the same room. I know what negotiations look like, we've been through two rounds of them … I know what Netanyahu looks like when he wants something, he tries to make contact, he locks you in for 10 hours and doesn't let you go. Look what they did with the ultra-Orthodox. [Aryeh] Deri and [Yakov] Litzman were fighting, and Netanyahu worked things out between them," he says.
"When there's a partnership and both sides want to go on together, it's important that the other partner feels at ease, even when you don't see eye to eye. We felt that Netanyahu didn't want to bring us into the coalition … His offers were humiliating, and so was his attitude."
"I don't think he would have coordinated with us on the sovereignty maps, or the facts that sovereignty could wind up including recognition of a Palestinian state. I assume he would not have brought us in on any real process. If he doesn't want you as a partner, you're of no interest to him."
Q: Maybe Netanyahu doesn't need you because he has religious Zionists in the Likud, people like Yuli Edelstein, Zeev Elkin, or Tzipi Hotovely.
"And look what he did to them. He kicked Edelstein out as Knesset speaker; he stabbed him in the back. He shoved Elkin out of the Environmental Protection Ministry and cobbled together a portfolio of nothing for him; and he appointed Tzipi Hotovely minister of nothing, and even that's temporary until he can send her abroad. That's not someone who wants partnership, that's someone who treats religious Zionism with condescension. Netanyahu is used to being the unquestioned leader, the only player on the national stage, surrounded by a herd of dwarves whom he permits to work in the niches he allows them.
"He wasn't able to accept religious Zionism with its current DNA, which is both very focused on its needs and very national and involved with everything concerning the Land of Israel and every area having to do with the Land of Israel, from an uncompromising right-wing, national outlook."
Q: In the last election, Yamina only won six seats. Maybe that means there is no longer a need for a sectarian party?
"I think that's totally incorrect. I believe it's important to remain a part of religious Zionism. If we don't, it will lose its influence. The power of religious Zionism … comes from it being a vibrant, living movement. A sector means political, cultural, economic power, and the ability to take action. Religious Zionism has more influence than the proportion of the population it comprises, because it's a united sector. If we turn into a bunch of religious Zionist individuals, we'll lose our influence.
"It's the least sectarian sector, it's entirely idealistic. When I take care of that sector's needs, I'm taking care of the entire Israeli public. When I secure budgets for the settlements, it's not because my friends are there – the opposite, my friends are there to continue the Zionist mission. When I secure budgets for religious Zionist institutions, I am building the incubators that will build the next generation of soldiers for Israel.
"At the same time, we definitely want a say in national questions. We have something to say about health care, education, transportation, and lots of other national issues.
"The Haredi public is undergoing some nice processes, but it doesn't have anything to say about the state of Israel, which is of no value to it. They have opinions on the Jewish people and the Land of Israel, so they are less of a threat to Bibi. Religious Zionism as a movement has national aspirations, and that clashes with Netanyahu's desire to be a one-man show."
According to Smotrich, "Netanyahu can't stand that we challenge him in the cabinet," and tries to present the party as contrarian and illegitimate.
Smotrich goes on to point out that ultimately, the party stood behind the prime minister: "My first week [as transportation minister], I closed the Sde Dov airport, even though I thought it was foolish. When the prime minister made the decision – I fell into line."
Q: Where there other instances in which Yamina did things they objected to?
"Throughout the 20th Knesset we swallowed toads. I thought there was no need to act on the ruling to evacuate Amona. But I stood up and defended the cabinet, said it had done everything it could.
Q: The Likud says you were offered the education portfolio, which is major, and another small portfolio on issues important to you, like national service and the settlements.
"Netanyahu wanted to give us education, which in the end he split, and another nothing portfolio as well as five or six things he put together in the final days to satisfy a few people. We aren't willing to play that game.
"We didn't ask Netanyahu to pay any political price he couldn't afford. No one [in Yamina] was asking for the health portfolio. Edelstein is there even though he didn't ask for it – Netanyahu tried to 'sell' the Health Ministry to Blue and White, but couldn't. No one wanted the Transportation Ministry, either. On the very last day he barely managed to convince Miri Regev to take transportation. We didn't ask for the religious affairs portfolio, because he'd have had to fight with Aryeh Deri. We were asking for the ability to really do something."
Q: So why doesn't he want you?
"Because he wants to be a one-man show, and he's heading into very risky moves on diplomatic issues. I'm afraid he's going for … sovereignty with part of the Jordan Valley, and he'll pay the dangerous price of recognizing a Palestinian state. That's a huge price we must not pay. It would be a disaster for Israel, and he doesn't want us in the coalition so we won't fight against it.
"There's another reason. For years, there's been a deal between Netanyahu and the legal system. He is selling off any move to address the legal system for the sake of his personal survival. He sold the legal system to Avi Nissankoren [of Blue and White], and the High Court allowed him to run for prime minister. Take Chief Justice Esther Hayut's ruling about the coalition agreement, which is a huge loss for the Right. It includes awful statements … but the bottom line is, Bibi can be prime minister. The Right lost, Netanyahu won. With this government, Netanyahu sold out the entire Right."
Q: Netanyahu says the only other option was another election.
"He handled the negotiations with Benny Gantz on his own. He was given a month to negotiate with Gantz, and he wasn't updating anyone. After a month we told him, 'Wait, let's sit down, all the partners in the bloc. For a year, you've been calling in the entire bloc every day, holding conference calls half an hour before the start of Shabbat. So now let's negotiate together. We agreed to Yariv Levin handling the negotiations, but after that, nothing.
"We made a mistake from the start, we didn't say, 'Stop. Either there is a right-wing bloc, or there isn't.' We should have made sure there was a negotiating team with representatives of all the parties in the bloc, like we agreed. A team that would set red lines.
Q: Maybe he isn't crazy about Yamina leaders Naftali Bennett and Ayelet Shaked.
"Anyone who knows Netanyahu knows that you're wrong. For him, there is no past and no future. He had massive clashes with Lieberman and still appointed him defense minister. Look at his relations with Gantz. They were going after each other during the campaign, and now they're friends.
"We'll wait until Netanyahu is gone. I hope that then it will be possible to rebuild trust between the Likud and religious Zionism. Netanyahu said he would be leaving in a year and a half."
Q: Is there a scenario in which Netanyahu calls on you a month or two from now, and you join the coalition?
"I don't have any personal hatred or personal considerations. We want partnership, but we won't agree to a partnership based on one side being in charge and the other having to be yes men."
Q: So despite the harsh words, there's a chance you'll be part of his government.
"One doesn't contradict the other. I said he's talented, that he achieves great things. I can't take that from him. He has talent and international standing, he moved Israel ahead. That doesn't contradict the fact that he doesn't want to partner with me."
Q: You can't ignore the fact that you received the fewest seats, six. You can't ask for much with that number.
"Those are six seats that made Netanyahu prime minister. If after the September election, we'd gone with Gantz, those six seats would have gotten us the defense, transportation, education, and justice portfolios. We could have closed on everything we wanted, while maintaining the current status quo. The Haredim would have joined shortly after us. But we didn't want to. We thought we could keep all the Right and the values of the Right together."
Q: Do you regret it?
"No … We could have betrayed him and called it 'avoiding an election.' We stayed loyal to the people of the camp, to its values and its path. I don't regret it for a moment. The public is able to appreciate people who don't turn when they have an opportunity."
Q: How will they show it?
"With more votes in the next election."
Q: How many will you get?
"I'm not going to bet. But I know we'll grow stronger."
Q: Is it possible you were suckers?
"Idealists aren't suckers. We'll wait and see. It will pay off."
Q: What will Yamina do now?
"We're working that out now. We're building an opposition strategy that will work to bring down this government as soon as possible. This isn't a right-wing government, it's a Netanyahu government. We will remind the national camp every day… about its challenges – sovereignty, fixing the legal system, maintaining the country's Jewish identity, a functioning economy. Let's see Netanyahu fix this crazy economic crisis with Nissankoren on the Ministerial Committee for Legislation and Amir Peretz at the Economy Ministry. Let's see him.
"I'll keep the Haredim on their guard about issues of Shabbat, kashruth, the rabbinate, and conversions."
Q: What does that mean?
"I'll wave a red flag on every slip. About work on train infrastructure on Shabbat, which hasn't taken place these past few months.
Q: There was no train work on Shabbat?
"Nothing. Not the trains, not the roads. I did it quietly, without wars. No one got angry. Sometimes it costs a little more, sometimes they need more people, but all the work can be done not on Shabbat.
A moment before the government was formed, Habayit Hayehudi leader Rafi Peretz decided to join the government as a minister. Smotrich, who leads the National Union party, was left with Bennett, Shaked, Matan Kahana, and Ofir Sofer.
Q: Where did you hear that Peretz had left?
"From the media, on Twitter. We knew he was negotiating, we knew he would join the government, and we knew it would be at any price."
Q: What did you think?
"That he was making a serious mistake. No one thinks that if Habayit Hayehudi under Rabbi Rafi Peretz runs alone next time, they'll make it past the minimum electoral threshold. Unfortunately, he is burying a 100-year-old party. There isn't a single political mistake he hasn't made. I want to honor him, he's a rabbi, he's taught lots of students, done good things, but he isn't right for politics.
"It's time religious Zionism realized that politics is a profession. Thus far, everyone who landed in it, from the army or anywhere else, hasn't succeeded."
Q: What kind of relationship do you have with Bennett?
"An excellent one. Naftali and I have our issues, we have different voices, that's how it is in religious Zionism.
"I intend to build one big party for religious Zionists, along with Bennett. Some more religious, some less, as well as secular people and others who identify with our ideas, like Ayelet Shaked and Shirli Pinto … I wanted to do that with Habayit Hayehudi, which is a historic 'brand' that goes back 100 years, but it won't happen.
"Before the last election, Naftali and I knew that we would pass the minimum electoral threshold, and that if Rafi Peretz joined up with [Otzma Yehudit leader] Itamar Ben-Gvir, he wouldn't. Ben-Gvir tossed out 18,000 votes, and together they lost 40,000-50,000 votes. People told me, 'Let them crash and burn, and you'll stay standing." I said I had a responsibility to religious Zionism as a whole."
Smotrich was moved at the ceremony in which he handed the reins of the Transportation Ministry over to Miri Regev.
"I fell in love with the ministry, with the people, with the work," he says. "I couldn't have asked for a better school or better teachers in my first administrative role. Based on what people are saying about me, it seems I managed to do a few good things, even a little holy work."
Q: What do you think of how the government handled the corona crisis?
"In the beginning, the ministers were dominant, and slowly it became something that was handled mostly by the prime minister and people from the Health Ministry. There were cases in which we were looped in only when something was already ready to go. They came to meetings with decisions that were already made, that had already been reported in the media. The ministers' resentment over this was justified.
"But I won't take away the credit Netanyahu deserves. He acted correctly. I hear all the wisdom in hindsight, and those people are wrong. It could have blown up massively. The reason it didn't and didn't crush the health care system was because of the steps that were taken.
"On the other hand, the exit was and is still be handled badly. It took a long time to create an exit strategy. It entails a few different aspects – proper preparation by the health care system, preparation of the economy, and compensation packages. Even now, people aren't receiving compensation. The prime minister blamed bureaucracy and regulation, which are obstacles. Hello, you've been prime minister for 13 years, you fostered Israel's monstrous bureaucracy."
Q: Litzman said this week that the scare tactics went too far.
"He said the opposite in the Knesset this week, that thanks to the fact that we closed down early, it worked optimally. I don't think there was any exaggeration."
Q: What role did you play?
"At the start of the crisis, I decided that we would send out flights to rescue Israelis [stranded abroad]. The Israelis who were rescued paid plenty for their flights, and there were reasons. Planes that fly empty one way, routes that were changed because the skies were closed in certain places. I put considerable resources into that."
Q: What do you think about the new government?
"I feel a sense of relief that I'm not part of it. It's a bloated government that was formed at a time when there are a million unemployed. We could call it populism, say that it's costing a lot, but still, there is the question of how it looks. The same issue applies when you declare a closure on Passover Eve and then have the kids over. As a leader, you can't ignore how things look. When the economy is collapsing, you can't inflate the cabinet.
"Even the idea of rotating prime ministers costs so much. Gantz has the Defense Ministry, and also a second prime minister's office, with a director and advisors. What will he do there? They both have security and housing. Are they crazy?
Q: What do you think about Gantz's decision to join Netanyahu?
"I admire him. In the end, he paid a very heavy personal price. My sense is that he truly did it out of a sense of devotion."
Q: Will this government serve its full term?
"I don't believe so. There are so many contradictions like there were in the Netanyahu-Lapid government of 2013 … Bibi and Gantz can get along because Gantz is easygoing. But there are people who aren't suckers, and it will be very tough for it to survive."
Q: Do you still believe a prime minister under indictment can serve?
"Yes, my position hasn't changed. Double standards are applied to Netanyahu. They investigated his cases like no one else has ever been investigated. They nitpicked to find a reason to indict. You can't escape the feeling that no one is trying to pursue justice. Functionaries can't be allowed to decide the results of a democratic election."
Q: This will be your first time in the opposition.
"Yes, I've only been in the Knesset for five years."
Q: Will you shout?
"I don't think so. I'll be to the point and appropriate."
Q: You'll have a lot more free time in the opposition. What will you do with it?
"I'm not on vacation. I'm going to work hard to bring down this government and bring us tighter together. My family also deserves some compensation. I'll try to be at home more to take care of the things that were neglected."
