Nitzan Horowitz does not get right-wingers' blood boiling the second they see him or hear his voice. He certainly does not antagonize them as much as his predecessors at the Meretz helm: Tamar Zandberg, Zehava Galon, Yossi Beilin, Yossi Sarid, or Shulamit Aloni. Make no mistake though because when it comes to Nitzan, it may be precisely because of his pleasant and affable way, which does not raise one's hackles, that he gets just as good results – if not better – for his movement and its interests.
Once it would have been completely far fetched to talk about a union between Meretz and Labor, not just because of the differences in approach, but mostly because of the personalities of their leaders. But the electoral cliff-edge, which left Labor and Meretz hanging precariously, staring into the void, led Amir Peretz, Horowitz and the main opponent to the move, Orly Levy-Abekasis, to the realization that they had no choice.
Q: Do you really think Israel's entire left-wing today amounts to 9-10 parliament seats?
"Absolutely not. For years now, there has not been a really big shift between the left and the right in Israel. There are big changes, however, within the blocs. For example, voters in the 2015 election gave the Labor party under [Isaac] Herzog 24 seats, and less than five years later, most of them voted for Blue and White. Our goal now is to bring them home."
Q: This week, you were already busy making plans: Orly as health minister, you as education minister, Peretz with an economic portfolio. Have you left anything for Benny Gantz or Avigdor Lieberman?
"Take a look at who today heads the education, defense and transport ministries in the Israeli government. Rabbi Rafi [Peretz], Naftali Bennett and Bezalel Smotrich. Our demands are very realistic, and we are making sure to suit the people to the roles. Around the world it's very common to have a shadow government 'appointed' by the opposition – it's the practice in Britain, Australia and several other places."
Q: Orly Levy-Abekasis seems uncomfortable with the fact your parties have joined forces.
"I do not find that at all in my dealings with Orly. I have no issue with her, and we've been friendly for many years. Her father, David Levy, did the smart thing at the time by setting up Gesher, which then joined with Ehud Barak's One Israel party [in 1999]. David Levy also chose the Labor ballot slip at the polling station."
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"Orly brought back Gesher, went with Amir, and I can tell you that the union between us is put to the test every day, and it is going strong. There are other parties where the ideological differences between the individuals are far greater than those between Orly and me. In Blue and White, even in Likud. The Joint Arab List has members of the Islamic Movement and communists who support the [Syrian President Bashar] Assad regime. Orly and I have won the outstanding parliamentarian award. Her father was happy and gave his blessing."
Q: Speaking of the Joint Arab List, do you think that the extremist Balad, which brings in only a handful of votes for the Joint Arab List, is damaging the interests of inclusion of Arab Israelis in the political discourse? Wouldn't it have been better if JAL chairman Ayman Odeh had let them run alone?
"That's their issue – I don't give Ayman advice. I was very glad that for the first time, an Arab party had given its recommendation to the president for a candidate from a Zionist party, Benny Gantz, to be prime minister. I have heard talk among them recently of a withdrawal of choice from cooperating with Blue and White because of its support for the Trump plan. I call on Ayman and his fellow members not to push themselves outside of the arena, because a large part of the Arab population wants to be integrated and wants integration and partnership in the Israeli here and now, and they want to go in this direction."
Q: And if there was an Arab economy minister, or tourism minister, or health minister?
"Amir Peretz already appointed an Arab minister, Raleb Majadele as sports minister. The Joint List won't sit in Gantz's government because they themselves do not want it – but if they want to support it from the outside, that would be great."
Horowitz, 55, lives in Tel Aviv with his life partner, theater and opera director Ido Riklin. For his military service, he served as Army Radio's military correspondent, and from there went on to an illustrious career in journalism, including as Haaretz's correspondent in Paris and Washington, and as Channel 10 News' foreign news editor.
He served as a Meretz MK from 2009-2015, and in 2013 ran against Ron Huldai for mayor of Tel Aviv, winning 40% of the votes. Last June, he stood against Tamar Zandberg for the Meretz leadership, and won with 54% of the votes.
Q: Yisrael Beytenu leader Lieberman has declared that he's willing to accept you. That is to say, accept Amir Peretz who brings with him the dowry of this union. I can remember previous Meretz leaders who would have been like a red rag to a bull for Lieberman.
"The basis of the next government is Blue and White, together with Labor-Gesher-Meretz, but it is obvious to me that this collaboration is not enough, and that we will have to see the results. In this respect, we do not rule out Avigdor Lieberman as a partner in this government. There are differences and divides between us, but the most important thing is a change of government and the ability to make a difference. A narrow, dogmatic mindset won't help us with anything, so I do not rule out any alliances, including with the Joint Arab List. It is clear to me they won't sit in the government, but they can also abstain from the outside when it comes to [the Knesset] approving the government."
Q: Is it clear to you that any government of yours that does not have a Jewish majority will get very little credit from the public?
"And Netanyahu's government that has not had a majority for a year now, does it have public credit? I am well acquainted with Israeli politics, it is the art of the possible, even when sometimes it looks like the impossible. The pre-election chatter of Netanyahu's bloc-of-55 is not the same chatter of after the elections when people see that Netanyahu is getting weaker from vote to vote, and that his legal situation is getting worse and worse.
"If Gantz forms a government, it will be very stable. Netanyahu himself made the no-confidence route more difficult, and it is almost impossible today to bring down a government. That's why you need to present a full, alternative government, including who gets which portfolios. If the Likud were in opposition, do you see the Joint List helping them over a no-confidence vote? There could be a government without a clear majority, but with a relative majority which functions well, and there could also be further recruits. That's the way it goes in politics."
Q: Is a national unity government an option?
"In my eyes, it is an option, and I say that too to people in Blue and White. As long as the Likud does not relinquish Netanyahu [as a leader], it means they do not really want a national unity government – and the time has come to rip off this mask. We will need to break out of this impasse after the third elections – and that means considering a government with a relative majority."
Q: Do you have any reason to think the results of the next election will be different?
"I don't know if the results will change, but it is in our interest to increase the voter turnout in our areas. In the center of the country, for example, the turnout of secular voters is relatively low. In Tel Aviv, turnout was 61 percent, almost 10 percent lower than the national average. In Israeli politics, it's difficult to move votes from left to right, or the other way around. And therefore the test is to increase voter turnout."
Q: How will you convince people to come out and vote? There is a very deep feeling of despondency among the general public.
"I agree that everyone is tired. People have had enough. But we must give it a final push in order to get a different government. Just get out and vote. We have a very strong and significant social agenda, and with our partnership with Labor, our ability to deploy is even greater. We're doing fieldwork, we're working to get people out and increase turnout in our key areas."
Q: Polls are giving your faction 9-10 seats, as opposed to the 11 collective seats that Labor and Meretz got separately in the last election. The fact that you are far off from the electoral threshold will mean that Blue and White can siphon off votes from you in the final stretch.
"I look at the center-left camp as one bloc, and the bloc is what is important, not the size of the largest party. A large part of Labor voters, and a small part of Meretz voters, went to Blue and White – and our goal is to bring voters home. We need to be the influencing force on Blue and White within the bloc, to influence Benny Gantz to go in the right direction, and not in the direction of full annexation of the territories as Yoaz Hendel and Zvi Hauser are advocating. Such annexation is dangerous in my opinion and make the possibility of one day having peace here all the more difficult."
Q: Benny Gantz said outright that he supports the Trump plan, including the annexation of 30% of Judea and Samaria.
"The key principle of the Trump plan is that of two states, with a solution for partition. The principle itself is correct. It has been talked about for years already and I am glad that even on the right they have realized that even Trump, Israel's great friend and Netanyahu's friend, believes in the two-state solution.
"The problem is that large parts of the right want to take from the Trump plan only the parts that work for them, the annexation, and cast aside all the rest. That won't work because the Americans are not stupid. The right's formula will lead to a state with a non-Jewish and non-democratic majority, a state that has annexed millions of Palestinians. This annexation will lead to an insane situation of 60 tiny enclaves inside a border or a fence, which will be an unrealistic hell for both sides. Is that really how we want to live? The solution is two states – giving them sovereignty in their territories. Most of the public is in favor of this."
Q: That's not true. Most of the public support an abstract idea of peace, but this peace needs teeth. On the Palestinian side there aren't any teeth either. PA President Abbas is at best steadfast in his position, and in the worst-case scenario, postponing the inevitable and will pass this issue on to his successor. In the meantime, we're not talking to him at all, and are bogged down in a useless confrontation with Hamas.
"And if there aren't two states, but one state, the Arabs will demand the vote, to be full citizens – and what then? I am convinced that giving them sovereignty over their territory is something that the majority of Israelis support."
Q: When former PM Ariel Sharon and the ordered the 2005 disengagement from Gaza that was not good for Israel. Hamas took over the Strip, and since then it has set the agenda through cycles of violence.
"The withdrawal from Gaza was the right thing to do, even the right does not want to go back into Gaza. I was debating Ayelet Shaked, and I asked her if she wants to go back there. Do you think she answered in the affirmative? No. The disengagement was done as a unilateral move by Sharon; the next arrangement needs to be done through agreement.
"The partner of the center-left is not Hamas, which is actually the partner of the Likud government which transfers millions of dollars to it every month. We need an agreement with the Palestinian Authority, with whom – despite all the difficulties and the prolonged rift between Netanyahu and Abu Mazen [Abbas] – we have security cooperation and economic collaboration, which even the right-wing governments closely maintain."
Q: One of the main criticisms of the left is that it is naïve. That it believes that Abbas, or whoever takes over from him, can really reconcile with us. There were prime ministers who went virtually all the way towards him, and it didn't make a difference.
"And perhaps the right is being naïve by thinking that the Palestinian issue will just disappear - poof? The government has frozen every diplomatic process, believing that things will ultimately work out. The right portrays Abu Mazen as our greatest enemy, and on the other hand, talks to Hamas even though it constantly fires rockets at us and paralyzes the south. Is it not obvious that Abu Mazen is getting weaker when we act in this way? We must shore him up, and we must bring about an economic arrangement, which even Yisrael Katz understands and supports.
"But what does Netanyahu do? He leaves Gaza a millimeter above the water, so that there won't be mass starvation. He doesn't give them anything, so they have nothing to lose. And so they act exactly like people who have nothing to lose."
Q: What's your solution for Gaza?
"My solution, and that of all the military chiefs, is to move towards an economic arrangement. Give them a horizon of development in exchange for calm and the return of the missing Israelis. Ultimately, there must be a diplomatic horizon, beyond just military handling [of the situation]."
Q: Gantz has said that the response to bombardment on the south is military action in Gaza. If the government takes a decision for a broad ground operation in Gaza, would you be able to live with that?
"It all depends on the overall strategy. We have seen over the last decade that military responses do not create solutions, sometimes complicates things, and after a few months, we're back to the same situation. A solution to Gaza is multi-faceted. There is no solution based only on military operations, without a diplomatic horizon. You have to look at the big picture."
Q: What about political leadership on the Left compared to leadership on the Right?
"I plan on staying in this role for a long time, I did not take this job for a short time. Previous party leaders remained in the position for a relatively long time. I am working closely with Tamar on this campaign, collaborating with her, she is my number two, she has the status and position that she deserves. I am not about settling scores."
Q: During last April's elections, Arab voters accounted for a whole extra seat for Meretz and essentially saved you from demise. But MK Issawi Frej now finds himself languishing in the 11th slot because of the union with Labor. You may be left without an Arab representative in the Knesset.
"In the April elections, the Joint List did not run together; many in the Arab sector were disappointed by the decision and voted for other parties, predominantly Meretz. In the last elections, the Joint List ran together, there was a strong protest vote, and we still got 20,000 votes in the Arab sector. We hope to continue growing even now. Labor and Meretz both held primaries. Issawi was elected to the fifth slot in Meretz and the 'zipper effect' following the union meant he is in the 11th spot. This is absolutely realistic."
Q: Let's talk a bit about your voters. On the one hand, they say that your powerbase is the greater Tel Aviv area. The problem is that people in other areas aren't voting for you.
"We don't decide our policy based on whether or not they're voting for us. The union highlights enormous social undertakings together with Amir Peretz, Orly Levy-Abekasis, and Itzik Shmuli too – people who live in the distant periphery or who are driven by deep social factors. This is our raison d'être. Labor-Gesher-Meretz is offering clear and precise solutions to people who need to ask themselves who really represents them in the Knesset, who is going to fight for them for disability allowance, for a decent minimum wage, on the side of the pensioners and teachers, and other groups in our society.
"Israeli society is divided into tribes and sectors, and it is hard for people to disconnect from past allegiances. People need to vote according to their social and economic interests, and that is not easy, because there are also elements of religion and tradition. We offer a comprehensive approach, which better suits many more people than the promises of Yamina, which is completely sectoral, working for the benefit of the settlers and in favor of increasing social divides. The moment you cut budgets for education and health, you are a capitalist who does not see straight. Bennet, Shaked and [Matan] Kahane are all opposed to unions.
"Many people say to us, 'we are in favor of your social policies because you are hardworking and honest, but we are opposed to your diplomatic approach.' So I say to all those people – the left is serving your interests diplomatically too, because if they knew how much Israel spends on what goes on in the territories, they would understand that it's coming out of their pocket, and that it impacts on the waiting lists in hospitals, the overcrowding and the chaos."
Q: I saw that Naftali Bennett put out a photo of you next to Rabbi Rafi Peretz and suggested that the public chooses between you for the education minister.
"Rabbi Peretz is unfit. He is an unenlightened person."
Q: He was the chief military rabbi, an IAF pilot.
"So let him serve as CEO of El Al. He cannot be education minister and educate children here. A person who supports conversion therapy for homosexuals, not just in words, but in deeds. He himself said that he had carried out conversion therapies. It's absolutely shocking and outrageous. Children in the LGBTQ+ community are not lumps of wood – they have a heart, they have a soul. They must be addressed, and the last person who can do this is Rafi Peretz. This is not an educational issue. And I haven't even mentioned the fact that he belittles the importance of the education that the system needs to give students.
"Education ministers with a background in religious Zionism, like Bennet and Peretz, have ruined the public school system, have damaged its budgets, done away with content on democracy and civics, have encouraged 'religification' and separation between girls and boys, and have fostered politicization of the education system through school visits to the territories and allowing religious organizations into the classroom.
"Meretz's education ministers – Shulamit Aloni, Amnon Rubinstein, and Yossi Sarid - left a legacy, and we want to restore it to its former glory. The education system is not registered on the name of religious Zionism. We want a state system that looks after the religious, secular, Arabs and periphery. This is far from being the case today.
"Schools should not be synagogues. Judaism and tradition are important, but the education system is meant to offer a far broader and more open education. My goal is to equate the status of the state school system to that of the religious system. We will look after children from age zero, and we will teach them to read before First Grade; we will increase teachers' salaries and do away with parental payments. That's the Compulsory Education Law, no?"
Q: How will you do this? From where will you get the money?
"The state already spends a fortune on the education system, but the funds are not managed properly. We have a whole plan that changes the budgetary priorities. There are dividends from natural resources that are meant to come in, and we will make sure that they come in much faster than currently planned.
"Improving teachers' pay is not an expense, it is an investment in human capital that will make our students much better. The level of education in Israel is low. Students finish 12 years of education without skills. We will make sure that there are good people in the system, and that will return the investment severalfold."
Q: If Gantz wants to form a government and will need Bennett, what will you say to him?
"Yamina of Rabbi Rafi and Bezalel Smotrich, not to mention their friends, is extremist and fanatical. As the phrase goes – not on our watch."
Q: You didn't mention Naftali Bennett and Ayelet Shaked. Can you see a scenario where they join such a government and split from the rest of Yamina?
"I find it difficult to believe. The distance and the difference between us is so great, and we have red lines. There must be some agreement around a common ground to enable a functioning government. I don't see that happening with Yamina."
Q: Could you live with ultra-Orthodox parties joining the coalition?
"I do not rule out cooperation with the ultra-Orthodox if the basis is a center-left government. They can join and be additional partners, as long as there is agreement on social and diplomatic policy guidelines. The ultra-Orthodox will also have to compromise on issues such as religion and state, for example on public transport on the Sabbath and civil marriage. The fact that hundreds of thousands of people cannot get married here is something that cannot continue, and the same is true of public transport on the Sabbath – which has been a huge success story for cities in the Dan region.
Q: And what are you willing to come towards them on?
"I am willing to come towards them on the military draft. Half of 18-year-olds do not go into the army today, and the numbers are only increasing. We have to change our outlook. The IDF itself doesn't need all those enlisting.
"I suggest that the army recruits the people it needs, and that there is a civil national service, which will include the ultra-Orthodox and the Arabs. They can help the elderly at home, work in the community in hospitals. The mantra of 'full mobilization' is outdated. The army doesn't want or need it. We need fresh solutions."
Q: You were a foreign news editor for year – how do you see Trump's term in the White House?
"I have no position on the US elections, but the incitement from Trump towards groups of the population bothers me. American Jews have also been harmed by the atmosphere of hatred and the incendiary discourse, which has gotten worse during his term. I don't think he's anti-Semitic, but where there is a racist and hateful discourse towards foreigners and immigrants, Jews are also harmed. Anti-Semitism in the US has increased – and that's linked to his style.
"Netanyahu made a mistake by going full tilt with Trump, neglecting the relationship with the Democrat Party. He has caused damage that will need to be fixed."
Q: When the history books are written, how will Netanyahu be remembered as prime minister?
"He is a talented and educated man with many abilities, but he will be remembered in a negative way because in recent years, he has gone in bad directions that have caused damage. All his attempts to stop the legal proceedings against him failed. He has to stop damaging the justice system because this is damaging faith in the state."
Q: And Benny Gantz is made from the stuff of prime ministers?
"I believe so. I have spent many hours with him. He is a wise and level-headed person, who takes a broad view. He could be a good prime minister, and we will be by his side to strengthen him. Blue and White is not a left-wing party. I would rather we influence him, and not Yoaz Hendel.
