Deputy Health Minister Yakov Litzman is sitting in his office on the 13th floor of the Health Ministry building in Jerusalem, managing things as usual. Transitional government or not, his schedule is packed. A solution for flu shots, new regulations, special individual cases. Sometimes he steals a glance at his pager (yes, they still exist, as text-enabled phones aren't "kosher").
Litzman says the current impasse in forming a new government is taking over his life and disrupting the Health Ministry's ongoing work.
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"The fact that we are in a transitional government is holding things up - reforms, appointments, changes we want to make. A real minister aspires to change, improve, to make things more efficient."
"There are changes that can be made now. For example, I visited the outpatient ward at one of the hospitals and saw chaos. Long lines, delays of hours. I issues instructions to open the outpatient ward in the evening, too. It doesn't take much money, and it makes things easier for the patients. But starting something new is much harder right now."
Q: Are you well-versed in the political negotiations?
"I know what gets reported to us in a meeting of leaders of right-wing parties. We were with [Prime Minister Benjamin] Netanyahu this week. Everyone shows up and confirms that they're still part of the bloc."
Q: That's how the conversation in those meetings goes? Promising Netanyahu that you're still with him?
"Not at all. We talk about all sorts of things … It's clear to all of us that there's no situation in which we'll break the bloc. We get reports on what happened, whether or not Netanyahu and [Benny] Gantz or their teams met.
"This week, everyone was talking about not wanting another election, and so [Shas leader Arye] Deri proposed holding a direct election for prime minister only, immediately."
Q: Did you agree to that?
"No. It's not feasible, and it would decide things and we won't support that."
Q: Who will break first in the negotiations?
"I don't know who will break, but I can say who won't - we won't. The bloc won't break. Every week we meet, and look each other in the eye, and declare that the bloc is alive and kicking."
Q: In other words, you won't bust up the bloc, even if that means another election?
"We aren't there yet. But if you're asking me - no, not even at the cost of an election. Everyone sitting in the room understands that the fact that the bloc exists might lead to an election."
Q: So in the blame game, you'll lose.
"There isn't any 'he started it!' here. We aren't there yet. Right now, the situation is that they [Blue and White and Yisrael Beytenu] don't want to talk to us. Yvette [Avigdor Lieberman] is talking about civil marriage - what does that have to do with us? You can't compromise when it comes to the Torah. On policy, maybe. But not on the Torah."
Q: Do you get the impression from Netanyahu that he wants a third election?
"What I understand from Netanyahu is that he wants unity. That he, Yariv Levin, and Zeev Elkin [the Likud negotiating team] are looking for a way to achieve that, and that they're fighting for us on everything. When Benny Gantz called me to invite me to a meeting, I was fair and told him that I had two representatives, Elkin and Levin."
Q: Who will be blamed for dragging the country into a third election?
"Whoever puts more efforts into PR will manage to blame the other side."
Q: If you [United Torah Judaism] were to leave the bloc, it would solve everything.
"Why do people complain about our bloc? Why doesn't anyone ask questions about his own bloc? Maybe if [Gantz] broke from his bloc with Yair Lapid, and solved the whole problem? Lapid is the one who is running things. The difference between Gantz and Lapid when it comes to the haredim, to tradition, and even Netanyahu is like day and night. Lapid is leading Gantz."
Q: You said at an Agudath Yisrael conference that we need to get ready for a third election.
"I issued orders not to close the election headquarters and not take down the party signs."
Q: There's a chance that another election could bring us back to the same situation.
"I don't know. I will do what I have to do. I can't say I'm willing to concede on the ban on public transportation on Shabbat. I can't say I'll concede about allowing civil marriage. And I can't say I'll concede about haredi conscription based on the framework agreement - the same agreement Lieberman agreed to, like other things he agreed on with us and then changed his mind at the last minute.
"Today, there is Avigdor, and there is Yvette. Avigdor is a Jewish name, a lovely name. Avigdor sits down with us, works with us, agrees to a conscription framework that we agreed to, works with Netanyahu, and everything is fine. Yvette is a politician and sometimes does one thing, and sometimes another.
"There is Yvette, and there is Avigdor. He has a split personality. He's unpredictable. Last year, he begged us to work with him on getting Moshe Lion elected mayor of Jerusalem. Then, he turned on us."
Q: What did you think about what he did?
"I was amazed. I've been in politics for many years and have never known a politician who did things to such extremes. Lapid is at least consistent - he hates the religious, hates the haredim, nothing will help. He doesn't try to hide it.
"Yvette flip-flops from day-to-day. There's a difference between Yvette and Lapid. Lapid did things. He was the finance minister and did things against the haredi world. Yvette is confused. Yesterday he was a friend, and today he hates us. And he worked with us for over 20 years."
Q: What are the chances he will return to the right-wing bloc?
"I don't know. I don't make bets."
Q: If he says that to prevent another election, he'll return to the bloc, would you sit with him?
"If I have no choice, then yes. But I'd be suspicious of him. I'd be suspicious he'd betray me again."
Q: Netanyahu is talking about a broad unity government. What will you do about Lapid?
"I don't discuss the negotiations."
Q: If Blue and White joins the unity government, as Netanyahu wants, you'll have a problem.
"There is a negotiating team - talk to them."
Q: What will you do if Netanyahu is indicted?
"Whatever the law says is what we'll do."
Q: Could you be in a government without Netanyahu?
"If Netanyahu resigns - that's another matter. As long as he's here, we are loyal to him. Not just me, everyone."
Q: Are there things on which you can compromise?
"Can we compromise on Shabbat? Can we compromise on Reform Jews? We can't."
Q: Maybe an agreement could be made not to discuss those matters.
"And in the meantime, what will happen? Will Shabbat be desecrated? Actually, that already happens. [Tel Aviv Mayor] Ron Huldai is operating buses on Shabbat."
Q: And what are you doing about that?
"Right now, nothing can be done. In a transitional government, nothing can be done."
Q: And later?
"We'll see."
Q: What would need to happen for you to join a government with Lapid?
"Everyone can repent. He could support the framework for haredi conscription we agreed to. He should have supported funding for yeshivot when it was discussed. He could have supported a cancellation of everything he did against us. He could 'find God,' but he wouldn't be Yair Lapid, he'd be Benny Gantz."
Q: Why are you [the haredim] so absolute about Netanyahu?
"We recognize goodness and loyalty. The Likud and the haredi parties have common interests. There's no reason to break that up, we need to preserve [the partnership] at any price. The alternative is what we hear from Lapid and his friends, who are now even worse than Meretz. Meretz deals with issues that have to do with the Palestinians, not the haredim. I don't agree with them, but they aren't attacking us. Lapid says terrible things about us."
Q: Were you offended by something specific?
"It offends me that he speaks against Shabbat, against the Torah."
'Not drunk with power'
Q: How did we find ourselves facing a third election? Maybe you should take a look at yourselves. You insisted on changing the conscription bill.
"It's all stories. We had an agreement on the conscription bill, small changes. Yvette wanted Netanyahu's head on a platter. If it hadn't been conscription, it would have been the Western Wall, or something else. We held an election because Lieberman wanted Netanyahu's head."
Q: It turned out, you gave him [Lieberman] a gift. He gained votes.
"We didn't give him any gift. He agreed to everything. We opposed the first conscription bill staunchly. He says it was a bill that we agreed to, but that's a lie. It was a bad bill. There is a clear written order from the Council of Torah Sages to oppose the bill. Full stop."
Q: Is it possible the haredim are drunk with power? In previous governments, you stopped railway infrastructure work on Shabbat; you cancelled the agreement for mixed-gender prayer at the Western All; and you even talked about closing down the Mahane Yehuda market in Jerusalem, which has nothing to do with the haredim.
"Have you ever visited Mahane Yehuda at night? Drugs, I don't want to say the next word, theft, noise. Is that allowed by law? Where are the police?"
Q: What happened with that?
"Nothing. They cordoned off the area a bit, that's all."
Q: So you weren't drunk with power?
"Not at all. We didn't want to change anything, just keep the status quo in place. They wanted to change things, to give the Western Wall to the Reform Jews, and start working on Shabbat, all things that violate the status quo. We just wanted to preserve the existing situation. I don't need to take a look at myself. We followed the opinion of the Council of Torah Sages. Anyone who listens to the Torah doesn't make mistakes."
Q: Why do you think people hate the haredim?
"For a few reasons. We have a high birth rate. They see the haredim increasing in numbers, and they don't like that. The haredim also don't have money, but are happy anyway. We study in yeshiva, enjoy learning Torah, live normal, happy lives. People can't stand that."
Q: Because they're jealous?
"Yes. Some people hate religion, and they're jealous. They don't know the haredim, they don't know the goodness they do. We help hundreds of people a day. Thousands every month. Despite the incitement against me, I think I'm pretty popular with the public."
Q: That was true four years ago when you started. Since then, there have been various and sundry investigations and probes involving you.
"All the probes against me came up because I helped people. I believe in helping, and I'll continue to help."
Q: Will you stay on at the Health Ministry?
"If we join any future coalition, I'll come back. I help people here."
Q: Maybe that's the problem, that you help with every individual problem but deal less with the major issues, like adding more hospital beds or changing policy.
"It's not one or the other. It's both. I very much believe in helping individuals. When it's tens of thousands of people, that's not 'individual.'"
Q: You've been at the Health Ministry for 4.5 years. How is the health care system doing?
"We've made a lot of changes. We've done a lot. We improved the system, we added MRI machines, we renovated and built emergency rooms. We have increased the budget for subsidized medications. We've added hospital beds, added free dental care for children, and more."
Q: So the health care system is doing well?
"The health care system is doing better than it was before I came but less well than I would have expected, and we're working to make it better. I won't deny there are problems. There is a lack of beds. I went to the prime minister and the finance minister and told them, 'Gentlemen, we need a bigger budget. There isn't enough money.'
"I proposed raising the health care tax by half a percent, which would bring in 3 billion shekels ($859 million) that would go to health care. I even submitted a detailed plan about where exactly the money would go. They both approved it, and in the meantime we're heading toward another election, and everything is stuck.
"If I'm still here, we'll go for it next time. That will bring us more emergency rooms, more beds. There are a lot of things we could do with that money."
Q: The measles outbreak this year was a major event.
"There are people who don't get vaccinated, and that's a big problem."
Q: What do you think about those people?
"That they should be punished."
Q: A lot of them are haredim.
"We set up special teams in haredi neighborhoods to handle the problem, but it's not restricted to the haredim. Measles wreaked havoc. I intend to submit a bill against people who don't vaccinate. What will the punishment be? I don't know. Maybe we should lean toward revoking National Insurance stipends for those who don't vaccinate. Not vaccinating harms me, harms children, harms everyone."
Q: What do you think about the problems with the investigations against the prime minister that were exposed this week?
"I won't get involved with that. I was questioned about my own affair, and that matter still hasn't been decided. I can't go into it. I have an opinion about what is happening and what happened with me, but I won't discuss it now."
