Q: Hello, Yochi Rappeport. You grew up in Safed, in a religious family. Your life's path was typical: seminary, army service with the IDF's Educational Corps, a college degree from Bar-Ilan University. You define yourself as an Orthodox Jew. How, at age 29, did you become executive director of Women of the Wall?
"I worked with the organization before this, as head of education and community affairs. The field of progressive and reformed Judaism interests me. Even as a child, I felt that something was missing. Prayers at seminary included songs, but we couldn't be part of a minyan. At age 15, as part of a youth delegation to Florida, I met for the first time a rabbi who wore a kippa but used the phone on Shabbat. I was angry, and he explained that he was a Reform Jews and viewed observing the commandments in a different light.
"In the army I met religious girls from Jerusalem, a stronghold of Orthodox feminism. In Jerusalem, they use both their intellect and their emotions. You can wear trousers ... and be religious. At the Education and Youth Department [of the IDF] I attended Shabbat services wearing my dress uniform. There were 10 girls and three boys there. One of the girls led the prayers, completely naturally. Changes need to be made in the attitude toward women – I need to be counted in a minyan, for example – but it's important to me to keep the mitzvoth. Other than matters of modesty, which aren't an issue for me. Barriers set up 2,000 years ago so a man won't be tempted? I don't count that as a mitzvah. Defining my hair as 'ervah' [something that must be hidden], or my elbow, or my voice?
"As a vegan, I believe that there will be no animal sacrifices in the Third Temple, [as per] Rabbi Kook's vision of vegetarianism and peace. The sacrifices in Leviticus were a response to the ancient conditions in which all peoples made sacrifices and God wanted everyone to stop flocking to paganism. It would be immoral to renew the Passover sacrifice and slaughter a sheep. It's a sheep! The world has changed. Trousers, for example, can't be defined today as 'manly,' as they are in Jewish law, because there are trousers designed for women."
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Q: When I see the Women of the Wall at their regular demonstrations, I see a group of provocateurs who are bothering people who come to pray at the holiest site for the Jewish people.
"We are disturbing their prayers? They're disturbing us! For 31 years we've been holding Rosh Hodesh prayers amid waves of opposition. Women are bused in to harass us. We don't bother anyone else who is praying. Israeli eyes aren't used to seeing women in a tallit [prayer shawl], and certainly not wearing tefillin [phylacteries], and what is different is equated to a 'provocation.' But throwing hot tea on me? Chairs? Arriving by the thousands to crowd around the wall so we won't have room? Physical violence is unacceptable. If anyone asks me questions calmly, I'll answer."
Q: So I'm asking.
"Women of the Wall started as a group of American women who came to Israel for a conference on feminism and Judaism. The hotel where they were staying did not allow them to pray there holding a Torah scroll, so they went to the Western Wall, where they were met with physical and verbal violence and realized that the wall had been re-occupied and was in the hands of a group of strangers."
Q: A group of strangers? We're talking about religious Jews.
"Who don't allow anyone to pray in any different way! I don't want to take anything of theirs away from them. We only want to be allowed to pray in our own way. The Western Wall is a place that we, the people, have made into a holy site and a symbol. It is unacceptable that a group of women not be allowed to pray in their own way. Everything we do is orthodox. Even the rabbi of the Western Wall knows that, and so do the chief rabbis. But the rabbi of the wall agrees to meet with us only if we agree to stop holding our prayers there. You'll sit down with me only if I agree with you? Only if I'm exactly like you?
Q: Do you put on tefillin in just any synagogue? No. You wrap them at the Western Wall. You don't put on tefillin every day, do you?
"I do."
Q: You put on tefillin every morning? If so, you're not Orthodox.
"Of course I am. Where are my tefillin? (She looks around.) Apparently my husband put them somewhere else, because I can't find them right this second. I'll show them to you in a minute."
Q: You know that according to Jewish law, you're not obligated to put on tefillin.
"I'm not obligated to, but I'm allowed to. I'm allowed."
Q: OK. How many times a month do you put on tefillin?
"How many days are there in a month, not counting Shabbat?"
Q: You get up in the morning and put on tefillin here, at home?
"Yes, Yoni and I take turns."
Q: What? With the same tefillin?
"No, he has two pairs and I have two."
Q: So why the turns?
"To take care of our daughter. She's two and a half. When I'm praying, he's with her, and when he prays, I'm with our daughter."
'Commandments of emotion'
Q: How long have you been putting on tefillin?
"Just a year. It was something I was curious about when I joined Women of the Wall. Once every few months we do like Chabad does, go out and set up stands where women can put on tefillin. That was when I did it for the first time."
Q: Do you put them on because it's a way of getting closer to the Creator, or because you want to create political change in the country?
"Why would I put them on at home, when no one can see me? What political change am I making here? I put them on simply because it's my way of getting closer to God. Women are not obligated to 'time-sensitive' mitzvot. But you sit in a sukka, right? Most women go to hear the shofar blown on Rosh Hashana. We are obligated to, but we want to fulfill those commandments. These are commandments of emotion, of experience, of the senses.
"Barriers set up 2,000 years ago so a man won't be tempted? I don't count that as a mitzvah"
"Think about Sfirat Haomer. Each evening you count, you're expecting – why? For the holiday of the giving of the Torah. Why wouldn't you participate in that? Or reading the Torah, with the beautiful inflections. And they tell you, OK, you have no part in all this. If I don't benefit from my Judaism, from the experience – what kind of Judaism do I have? One without taste, without scent, without feeling, what am I supposed to pass on to my daughter?"
Q: Most Israelis would tell you, 'Do us a favor – leave off the tefillin until you've observed all the other mitzvoth. If you looked like Orthodox women, and you did all the mitzvot and not just "ones of emotion," and you wanted to add to that tefillin – then fine. But [MKs] Michal Rozin and Tamar Zandberg and Stav Shafir, who show up at your provocative "shows" don't lend much credence to the honesty of your intentions.
"Oh, come on. Zandberg came one time and explained that she had come because it was a feminist battle, as well. It's a religious struggle, but also a feminist one."
Q: It is more religious, or feminist?
"Religious. So a woman can pray at the Western Wall. We were at the wall during Slichot, and there was a group of seminary girls there who were singing songs in a big circle. It moved me so deeply. I went up to them and told them that we were from Women of the Wall, and that they were able to sing aloud there because of us. For 31 years Women of the Wall have been fighting so that a woman's voice can be heard at the Western wall.
"It's like the suffragists looking at us today and being amazed that we vote for the Knesset without a second thought. Some of them had their children taken away, some of them were put in prison, some of them were killed. But they [would] look at us today and say, 'It was worth it, our battle paid off.' This is what God is talking about when he says, 'There is hope for your future.' [Jeremiah 31:17] We're trying to change the picture outside the Western Wall, too. We reach out to the media, to the government, to the High Court. We work on public opinion and visit schools, pre-army academies, and communities."
Q: Israelis who see you say, feminism is fine, but not using sacred objects. Don't come up to us wearing a tallit. Even someone secular – for whom the synagogue he doesn't attend is Orthodox – doesn't want to see that. So why?
"Because Judaism has been co-opted by one stream."
Q: That's the way it is with all religions. How many female bishops hold Mass? How many female qadis are there in Islam?
"But the countries, other than radical states, aren't nations of one religion that don't allow people to observe their religions in different ways. When my haredi uncle invites me to his son's bar mitzvah, I go knowing that I'll be sitting upstairs [in the women's section]. I don't wear a tallit or tefillin, I sit separately [from the men], eat separately. It's a private event. The Western Wall is not private. Judaism is in the hands of one side because of the monopoly of the rabbinate. The people are voting with their feet and saying, 'We don't want this.' For example, they don't want to get married in the rabbinate. Five and a half years ago, I had the great privilege of not getting married through the rabbinate."
Q: You got married privately? Against the law?
"Yes. A rabbi sanctified our union against the law. We also got married abroad, and we are registered as married in Israel."
"Judaism has been co-opted by one stream"
Q: Let's get back to the Western Wall. There is something known as 'local custom.' You show up somewhere where a custom is in place and feel like changing it.
"A custom of 51 years. Before that, there was no separation between men and women. Before that, no one wore a tallit and tefillin while praying at the Wall, neither men nor women. The Jordanians didn't allow it, and the British didn't allow it, and the Ottomans didn't allow it."
Q: So there's been a local custom for 50 years and you want to shake it up? Why is it so urgent for you?
"Who decided what the local custom would be? The rabbi of the Western Wall, the Chief Rabbinate."
Q: No, so did the people. There is a sector who observes that kind of prayer.
"In 2013 Judge [Moshe] Sobel ruled in the Jerusalem District Court that Women of the Wall were also part of the 'local custom.' Jewish custom is something that develops, that changes with time, according to people's needs. We brought in a new need. A need that both Israelis and Diaspora Jews want to see."
'Third-class citizens'
Q: But there is a solution: a few years ago, the government established the 'Ezrat Israel' section, a half-dunam area [roughly a tenth of an acre] for prayers. It's located along the Western Wall, the same wall. That area is always open, it's available to both men and women, and Torah scrolls are available. And you don't pray there! You called it a "sun deck." The Reform Movement in the US responded that "the Western wall should be open to all Jews, to men and women equally." You won't stop until the Western Wall is in your hands."
"We won't compromise until the government implements the Western Wall framework at Ezrat Israel. The way it looks right now is insulting. It's a third-class area for third-class citizens, so we're demanding that it be refurbished. Secondly, there should be a single common entrance to the Western Wall, not some side entrance for Ezrat Israel so that everyone can decide where to go and have to guess that there's a second prayer area. That would mean moving the entrance to the Western Wall a few meters [yards] back. Third, there must be government funding. And fourth, the area must be managed by Women of the Wall and the pluralistic streams of Judaism, the Reform and Conservative movements. We won't let the rabbi of the Western Wall manage the area."
Q: You're talking like a terrorist organization. Until all your demands are met, you'll stir up provocations and disturb prayer.
"Provocation is a harsh word for prayer, certainly for Jewish prayer at a holy, unifying site. Jerusalem is a city that makes all the Jewish people friends. Jerusalem as a built-up city that has been united. You can't link to just one side of Judaism. I am saying that as an Orthodox woman. It pains me that my Conservative, Reform, and secular friends are treated like third-class citizens in the state of Israel.
"We aren't provocateurs who show up to flip anyone off. If that were the case, we'd have gotten tired of it a long time ago. We are women of faith who have come to pray every month for 31 years, in snow and in heat waves, when there were terrorist bombings and when there were security alerts, even at the cost of personal harm and violence against us. All we want is a respectful place to pray. If and when the Western Wall compromise is implemented, we will agree to a compromise and move to the Ezrat Israel area to pray. Until then, we're at the Western Wall, every single month."
"Jewish custom is something that develops, that changes with time, according to people's needs"
Q: You sound spoiled. There is a very nice compromise and it's a lot more than what existed a decade ago, relatively far from what could be expected from the rabbi of the Western Wall. And you want more and more. It doesn't end.
"There aren't even bathrooms there. It's not accessible for the disabled, for the elderly, for baby strollers."
Q: And until all your terms are met, you aren't willing to pray at Ezrat Israel and prevent this needless friction?
"The friction comes from them. I didn't bring it on myself. They don't like seeing me? They should take a look at themselves."
Q: What does that mean, 'they don't like it'? It's your right to pray vs. his right to pray. He can't pray if there's a woman in a tallit.
"Why not?"
Q: You offend his religious sensibilities.
"The Western Wall is a symbol of the [religious] molopoly that has taken place in Israel. I insist on liberating the Western Wall, and I will use that word – liberate the wall – to throw off that monopoly. Let the Judaism of the haredim be their Judaism, with our blessings and love. I respect it, but my Judaism will be according to my own path. Let others do things their way. We face more opposition than any other organization because we touch on the core of the Jewish people, which is the Western Wall. A man can pray - he has a two-meter-high barrier! It's opaque! He stands on the fence, watching me pray, and says I'm bothering him? He can't see me unless he wants to see me."
Q: Today you want to sit in the women's section wearing a tallit and tefillin. Tomorrow you'll want a mixed-gender minyan, and the day after you'll demand to sit in the men's section.
"I won't want to sit in the men's section, and we won't ask for the barrier to be taken down. I would like it to be in the middle, but that's not what we're fighting for. I am fighting for my right as a woman to hold the Torah in my arms."
Q: Let's say the Ezrat Israel area was put in order and given government funding, and Women of the Wall prayed there rather than at the Orthodox Wall – would you accept that there is [a part of] the Western Wall you don't visit, because it isn't yours – it belongs to someone else?
"That's the compromise that has been reached. A few of the paratroopers who liberated the Wall in 1967 joined our battle and said that they had sacrificed and their comrades had died beside them knowing that the joy of the Jewish people would not be complete until the symbol was in our hands. And now, seeing how it has been re-occupied by a small group, a group of extremists from within our own people? That's not why they liberated the Wall."
Q: After everything you've said, I assume you'll be among the first to support freedom of religious worship and the right of Jews to pray on the Temple Mount.
"I don't want to get into that issue. Women of the Wall has no stance on the Temple Mount. Jews and Muslims should be allowed to pray there, but I wouldn't want to start World War III. It's too volatile a place."
Q: You're doing that 100 meters away, at the second most-volatile place.
"True, and we always say, the writing is on the wall – blood will be spilled at the Western Wall."
Q: When you pray for the Third Temple to be built, what are you actually praying for?
"World peace. I don't know if there will be a physical Temple on the Mount or not. It certainly won't drop from the heavens and destroy the mosque. I believe that the Temple and a mosque beside each other is realistic. Above all, my battle is dedicated to my daughter. I imagine her bat mitzva at the Western Wall, without shouting, with her holding a Torah."
'It's not a battlefield'
The Western Wall Heritage Foundation issued a statement in the name of Rabbi of the Western Wall Shmuel Rabinovitch in response to the claims made in this interview.
"Women of the Wall have consciously chosen to turn the Western Wall prayer plaza into a battlefield. Their insistence on praying in the traditional women's section rather than any of the alternatives the government and the High Court have offered, shows that the purpose of their activity is provocation, not prayer. We have tried to do everything possible to preserve the prayer plaza as a place for prayer, not a battlefield," the statement read.
"We tried to create a dedicated area that would separate them [the Women of the Wall] from the hundreds of women worshippers who oppose them, and Women of the Wall chose to go in an pray among the other women, against instructions. Complaints of violence have been filed with the police against Women of the Wall.
"The millions of visitors to the Western Wall are happy with it exactly as it is, and flock to it. This small, vocal group, which is demanding to implement its rights at the expense of the many visitors and worshippers, should bow to the desire of an entire people, and devote its energies to more appropriate struggles in other places," the statement continued.
