It's not easy to interview No. 2 on the Blue and White list, Yair Lapid. Interviewing is his job. As a journalist, he's conducted hundreds of interviews, and as a politician, he has been interviewed as many times, if not more. Right away, he grasps where every question is going, he knows what the follow-up questions will be, and skirts difficulties through shrewd choices of words and a mountain of charisma. There's no point in trying to soften him up with tactics like, "5 Things You Never Knew About Yair Lapid" – he invented the genre.
Nevertheless, just before Election 2019 2.0, the conversation with Lapid is instinctual, the messages are sharp, and there is a sense that this time he has nothing to lose and is speaking from the heart.
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The past few weeks haven't been easy for Blue and White, with unflattering reports about investigators and moles, investigations in the top ranks of the party, and a drop in the polls – not to mention the worry that once again, a good showing might not be enough. But Lapid is optimistic: "In the past two polls, we've led," he tells Israel Hayom.
"We're getting closer to the number we had at the end of the April election."
Q: Do you trust the polls?
"Only when they're good. That's an attitude that helps a person's mental health. We learned in the last election that it could all hang on one seat either way. Everyone laughed at Benny Gantz for giving a victory speech, but Bibi [Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu] also gave one, and that's no less ridiculous. Neither one of us won, that's a fact."
Q: What will the day after the election look like for Blue and White?
"There will be a bunch of phone calls that everyone will know about, and another round of calls that no one will know about. We'll talk with [Avigdor] Lieberman, with Amir Peretz – and I don't see any reason not to talk to Naftali Bennett and Ayelet [Shaked]. That's what you do in coalition talks."
Q: You mention Bennett and Shaked, but not Bezalel Smotrich or Rafi Peretz.
"Rafi Peretz and Smotrich can't be ministers in an Israeli government, you can see that from the short time they've served as ministers. Peretz is utterly committed to the radical agenda of Rabbi Tau."
Q: So there's no way you would join a government with them?
"Just like I wouldn't want to be ruled out, I don't want to rule out others, but I don't see them sitting with us. In any case, there will be a series of talks with senior Likud officials, who are simply unwilling to see Bibi's legal troubles send them into yet another election."
Q: You've been saying for a few weeks that top Likud officials are talking to Blue and White in secret. It must be obvious to you that without naming names, that doesn't sound plausible.
"I'm not sure that people don't believe it, because like they're talking to me, they're talking to journalists, as well. These aren't exclusive talks, they're part of the political-media system."
Q: Are you saying that Likud officials call you up and say, 'The day after the election, we're with you'"?
"That's not how it works. We've been working in the same building for a few years now. There are relations, there are conversations. They know that I'll never leak, so we talk openly. We've said that the day after the election, we'll talk with Yuli Edelstein, Gilad Erdan, Yisrael Katz, and Gideon Sa'ar. These are people I talk to every day."
Q: Is Joint Arab List leader Ayman Odeh a possible coalition partner for you?
"No. Before Ayman Odeh makes public declarations that he won't negotiate with us, he should resign from Balad – an anti-Zionist party that doesn't accept Israel as a Jewish state, that preaches a 'state of all its citizens,' which is the end of Zionism. Odeh made a mistake when he tied his fate to theirs. He disqualified himself."
"The Arab public is a sector with real problems that need to be addressed. Most of them are working people who are worried about the same problems that concern you and me, like the cost of living, education, and more. And they get disgraceful and horrifying political representation."
Q: Blue and White is focusing on the message 'Anyone but Bibi.' Do you think that's enough?
"That's a strange thing to say about a party that has put out the most detailed platform, with well-ordered work plans to address education, health care, and the cost of living. We have an organized worldview. The public will get a group of people who are fair and honest, who won't sell the state to extortionists and radicals, who will work hard on security, to lower the cost of living, improve education and health care – everything this government isn't doing, because it's busy with immunity for Netanyahu."
חייבים לשים סוף להתקפות הפרועות על עיתונאים pic.twitter.com/N8G1TBePvG
— יהודה שלזינגר (@judash0) September 4, 2019
Q: So why are you seen as the 'Anyone But Bibi' party?
"An election is between options. Netanyahu has been prime minister for 13 years, and the discussion now is about what he has done, not what he is. There is a difference between the Bibi of five years ago and the Bibi of the past two years when he has been beaten down by his problems and fears. He functions well at press conferences and photo sessions."
Q: Blue and White doesn't do as well at interviews and photo shoots.
"That's true. Not many people are as good at interviews and photos as Bibi. But that's not the essence of the job."
Q: What did you think about Gantz's unsuccessful media appearances?
"That doesn't worry me. Part of his charm is that he isn't a sophisticated 'message machine,' he's a real person from real life. I always tell TV and radio hosts: remember, Gantz isn't running for your job. He's not going to replace [Channel 2 news anchor] Danny Kushmaro."
Q: Still, a prime minister has to speak in public and do well at the UN, and in the foreign media.
"Benny interviews well, you don't need to get carried away."
Q: And when he got the name of Dvir Sorek wrong, on camera?
"He got the name wrong. It happens to me, too."
Q: How much damage does that do?
"Nothing. It's just Twitter. Look at the numbers – we're leading. People understand that the job of prime minister is something else entirely. Look at the difference between Benny and Netanyahu. Part of Netanyahu's work has been to take out everyone and ensure that he's the sole leader. His staff is made up of three 30-year-old kids. I'm impressed that Bogie [Moshe Ya'alon] and [Gabi] Ashkenazi, who were Benny's commanders, tell him, 'Now you're in command.' That's an event. I say the same thing. There's a candidate for prime minister, but there's a team that works with him, there's a group. That's a strong thing."
"Why is the Likud trying to insist that there are fractures in the cockpit'? Because they know that's our power, the group. Do you want security? We have three chiefs of staff. Do you want a war on corruption? Look at what [Ya'alon] has done. Do you want to focus on the economy? Lapid took care of the deficit and brought higher growth than the finance ministers who preceded and followed him. We are a package."
Q: In retrospect, do you think it was smart for Yesh Atid to join forces with Ya'alon and Gantz?
"Yes. I'm in a party with leadership energy that can provide an alternative to the current government."
Q: In the 2015 election, you faced off against Netanyahu on your own, and now you're one of four.
"The situation is different. Now I'm a joint candidate for prime minister in a party with 35 seats. That's a step up. My situation is better and more relevant than it was a year ago."
Q: Do you think you'll eventually become prime minister?
"Yes. I made a deal with honest people. When you have a deal with honest people, you feel safe."
Q: Reports say you're being pressured to resign.
"There was a discussion a few months ago that was reported, and at the end, we all shook hands on the same deal. Channel 12 covered it a week ago. It turns out Blue and White would lose two seats if I gave up the rotation because Yesh Atid supporters would vote for [Avigdor] Lieberman."
Q: There is a notable lack of coordination between you and Gantz.
"The public isn't buying that. It looks as if there are constant attempts to check whether the four are still functioning, whether my partnership with Benny is still strong. That is our biggest strength. Netanyahu understands that."
Q: Your response to events in the North this week was brutal, very political. It wasn't characteristic of you.
"Something very serious happened here. The most recent event in which Lebanon attacks was absolutely the result of Netanyahu's getting rid of the policy of ambiguity. The fact that they leaked that the attack in Beirut was us – according to foreign sources, I wonder where they got that – is what led to the event at the start of this week."
"All these years we've been operating without accounting to anyone – in Syria, Lebanon, and against Iran entrenching itself in the region, and maintaining ambiguity. We don't admit it's us, and even carry out psy-ops to claim it wasn't us. Then Netanyahu comes and takes away that ambiguity because of the election."
Q: Do you believe that the chief of staff and head of the Mossad worked with him because of the election?
"No one asked them. There isn't one person in the defense establishment who thinks that getting rid of the policy of ambiguity was a good idea."
Q: Netanyahu's 'A Different League' campaign shows his close ties to Russian President Putin and US President Trump. You don't appear there.
"That's not accurate. He isn't in a different league. That's a story he invented about himself and is pushing, with great skill. Anyone who is prime minister of Israel will have to have good relations with Trump. Good ties with Putin? Putin let the Iranians into Syria."
Q: What about the mole in your party? Did you find out who it was?
"There was no mole."
Q: What do you say to the argument, 'You couldn't keep your phones safe, how will you keep the country safe'?
"I don't understand what one has to do with the other. Someone tries to hack your phone from abroad. So what's the claim? That because you don't have your own program, you won't be able to protect the country? That's a catchy phrase until you stop and think about it.
"In Israel, there are attempts to hack the phones of all political leaders, all the time, including in the Likud. I am a member of the Knesset Subcommittee on Intelligence and Secret Services, and I know that there are thousands of hacking attempts against all the top officials in the government. Just because they're trying to hack you doesn't make you less responsible."
Q: Did you ask Gantz what they found on his phone?
"No."
Q: Your partners aren't saying unequivocally, 'We won't sit with Netanyahu.' They get bogged down in scenarios of rotation and complicated explanations.
"Every one of them has appeared on camera and said, 'We won't sit with Netanyahu.' We won't sit with someone who is facing three indictments, who wants immunity, and because of that is willing to sell out the sacred values of the state. We won't sit with Netanyahu, period."
Q: And if there was a deal for two years of the Likud in charge, and two years of Blue and White?
"I could envision something like that, but we won't sit with Netanyahu. We can sit in a unity government, and it's important to have a unity government because we're on our way to an economic crisis. The deficit indicates that. A world crisis is on the way that will affect the pocket of each and every one of us."
"Given that and the security challenges, a unity government would be best. Right now there's one person preventing that, and his name is Netanyahu."
Q: Have you heard the rumors that Netanyahu might break your [group] up and take Gantz?
"That won't happen. Benny is an honest guy. He says he won't sit in a government with Netanyahu because of the indictments."
Q: Did Blue and White sign a surplus votes deal with Lieberman because you are natural partners?
"The advantage of being a centrist party is you can work with everyone."
Q: Are you centrist? Not Right, not Left – just in the middle?
"We're in the center. I know that the human mind looks for absolute definitions, but most of the people in Israel are in the center. Not extremists, they don't want a state that is run by Jewish law, they understand that life isn't a zero-sum game, that no one gets 100% of what they want."
"A political move has one purpose – to allow people who think differently to live together. So Bibi's discourse is dangerous. The fact that he says, 'Admit who you are.' The basic idea of politics is to let different people live together."
Q: 'Left' has become a bad word.
"That's really unhealthy, the delegitimization of the Left. Because I'm not on the Left, I'm aware of it. Netanyahu has called people other than me 'left-wing.' Ayelet Shaked, Naftali Bennett, Lieberman, and Ya'alon.
"The Left is a legitimate position. It's incorrect, but that doesn't mean it's illegitimate. The Left says that anyone who disagrees with it is stupid, and the Right says that anyone who disagrees with it is a traitor. Neither is correct. It's fine to disagree. That's why you need a center."
Q: Still, both the Right and Left are certain political and security outlooks. What is the center's?
"More than 90% of the problems are practical issues with practical solutions."
Q: What does that mean regarding the Gaza Strip, for example?
"A centrist party says, we aren't going to take anything off the table, including a decisive move in Gaza, including an invasion of Gaza and toppling the Hamas regime. It makes decisions based on the situation."
Q: Gantz recently said he would make sure that Gaza would be the last war. Ministers who were in the cabinet when he was chief of staff say he did everything to avoid defeating Hamas there.
"I was in the cabinet, too, that's not what happened. In Operation Protective Edge, under Gantz's command, the army hammered Gaza mercilessly and deterred Hamas. That's how we got 3.5 years of quiet that gave us a chance to make a deep-seated change in Gaza. We needed to take action there with plans that would have made the civilian population tell the Hamas leadership 'Stop attacking Israel, because it causes us harm.'"
Q: It looks like you and Gantz are playing good cop, bad cop.
"We have different temperaments. That's not a bad thing."
Q: Where did you lose your patience with the haredim?
"There's a difference between the haredi world and haredi politicians. They have a trick: when you argue with them, especially when you have good arguments, they don't argue back, they shout 'Hatred of Jews!' MK Yisrael Eichler once called Elazar Stern an 'anti-Semitic observant Jew.' He told me that I reminded him of Hitler. These aren't arguments, they're just shouting. That's how they work."
Q: In your last campaign clip, you portrayed the haredim as extorting budget money.
"That was a joke at Netanyahu's expense, about how he's willing to give them anything. Just a joke. The haredi parties' campaign in their own sector talks about how much money they'll get for the haredi world."
Q: How do you explain that there is still so much talk about the haredim, after so many years?
"Because it's a real problem. I can show you the numbers. Most of the Israeli public is worried about religious coercion. The supermarkets bill, for example, was a clear violation of the status quo."
Q: Do you want to see all the supermarkets open on Shabbat?
"Only in secular areas. If markets open in Bnei Brak on Shabbat, Moshe Gafni and I will protest that, together. I don't want to interfere in their lives, and I don't want them interfering in mine."
Q: Who does Blue and White want to see as religious affairs minister?
"That ministry should be a department in the Prime Minister's Office or in the Interior Ministry."
Q: Should the ministry be closed?
"It should be, as well as the Diaspora Affairs Ministry, and the Jerusalem Affairs and Heritage Ministry. We need 18 ministers, like the law I passed states. There's no reason to maintain ministries to create jobs for buddies."
Q: If you won't sit with the haredim, it could prevent the establishment of a coalition government.
"I'd be happy to sit with the haredi parties. We can pass laws that are necessary – civil marriage, civil partnerships, public transportation on Shabbat, conscription for haredi men, and a core curriculum in haredi schools. I think it would be good to work with the haredim on these issues."
Q: What do you think about court reforms?
"I'm in favor of new legislation. Checks and balances must be restored. The idea of a law that would allow the Knesset to vote to override a Supreme Court ruling is complicated. I'm in favor of a law, but only with a majority of 70 or 80 MKs, and that must include opposition MKs."
Q: Why do you think you spark so much emotion and antagonism?
"Good question. Ask the people who feel that toward me. I hope that I also spark love and identification."
Q: What do you think of Netanyahu as a politician?
"He's an excellent politician."
Q: What is his biggest drawback?
"He is only concerned with himself."
Q: Do you ever miss your life before politics?
"It's true that I used to receive just admiration, and now I get slander, threats, curses, letters left by my door. People shoot rubber bullets at our conference in Rehovot. The prime minister gives speeches in which he slanders me. Still, I'm happier now, because I'm fighting for things I believe in. When I'm fighting for those things, I don't see anything else."
Q: What do you want to be when you grow up?
"I'm going to be prime minister."
