Interviewing Likud MK with Gideon Sa'ar is no easy feat. He is very experienced, very calculated, he speaks slowly and thinks carefully about every word that comes out of his mouth.
For Sa'ar, it makes perfect sense to adopt such a demeanor. This is how he has survived the roller coaster called politics. When Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu puts someone in his crosshairs, that person usually does not survive politically. But Sa'ar is one of the few who managed to make a political comeback, big time.
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Sa'ar, 52, lives and breathes politics and looks at everything through the prism of the media. When a locality wanted to name a street after him, he declined, saying that his detractors would turn it into a scandal.
He is also very measured in the degree to which he opens up about his private life with his wife, TV persona Geula Even-Sa'ar.
Sa'ar has four children, Daniella (27) and Alona (22) from his first marriage, and David and Shira from his current marriage to Even. His wife has three children from her first marriage. Sa'ar also has a grandson, Nimrod, who is two years old.
"I am a young grandfather, but an old father," he says with a smile. "I did the math. It appears that by the time all my kids are over 18, I will have already been a father for 42 years straight.
"Being a father is a dominant and ongoing experience. People my age usually no longer have kids at home, they are free. But I am lucky to once again have young kids. I am happy and want to make the most of this opportunity."
Q: So you and Geula are a power couple, with paparazzi and everything?
"That's fine. This is not something that's unusual as far as we're concerned. We come from this world [of politics and media], and this has no impact on us. We have love, our relationship is great. Our partnership is a full partnership. We have the same interests and we are very happy parents."
Q: Geula made a very big sacrifice by leaving her position as the news anchor of Channel 1 News, because of your return to politics.
"Both of us made sacrifices in some ways. From the outside looking in, people might think these sacrifices are super dramatic. Five years ago, I was the one who left my [ministerial] position. Forfeiting such stature was almost unheard of; I doubt if anyone in Israel has ever done such a thing before. This was just after David was born, and I realized that once again becoming a father, it was important to invest my time in my new family and fully experience what it was like being in a relationship and being a father."
Q: Some people said you left politics only so that you could make a political comeback and look stronger. Some say you did this in order to project the aura of an outsider.
"Absolutely not. In fact, some people predicted I would never be able to make a comeback. But life is not just politics. I left because of the unique circumstances: I had been in politics for too long, 20 years straight; I felt that I needed to recharge and also to spend time with my new family. I suspect that without those two things, I would have not made that decision.
"This was indeed a decision that entailed a heavy sacrifice. You build a path for your career, you obtain your goals, you achieve the stature you want and the appreciation you seek, and then you give it all up. I had no way of knowing if I would ever return, how I would return and whether I would be able to climb to the same position of power that I once had. There was a risk.
"One needs enormous strength to give up this power. You have to internalize that you are not born or defined by the position you have, but rather, that you can reinvent yourself and build a new and fulfilling life based on your talent and skills."
Sa'ar is very calculated, he speaks slowly and thinks carefully about every word he utters – traits that he adopted to survived the roller coaster of Israeli politics
"When the April election was called, Geula made a decision that she did not have to make. In fact, her bosses told her, 'Stay.' But she concluded that leaving Mabat [the news station] would be the right thing to do. She is very professional.
"When you work in the media, it doesn't matter what the facts are, what matters is what people's perception is. If she asked one of my political rivals of colleagues a question in an interview, people would immediately speculate that this was 'because of Gideon,' so she decided to move to a different arena. She made a professional sacrifice and left, having already achieved what is the most prestigious position in her field, a nightly news anchor. She is very happy today, and is having a good time."
Q: Even has recently been in the spotlight after she rebuked her co-host Yaron London for his inappropriate comments about women. Were you proud of how she confronted his comments?
"I have always been proud of her. She knows how to do the job, I am not sure that there are many people who can match her quick thinking and understanding of the situation. This is why she is such a great interviewer. She interviews like a good lawyer who is preparing a cross-examination. When she asks a 'witness' a certain question, she knows what her follow up question is as soon as he answers, regardless of what his answer is. She has a great way of improvising."
Q: Her reaction to London's comments was a natural reaction as a woman.
"This has to do with her professional world. It would be inappropriate if I analyzed her professional life."
Q: What did you both think about how the satirical show "Wonderful Land" impersonated the two of you?
"We laughed. I am not sure they captured who I really was, but I liked the fact that they defined us through our love. This is totally fine as far as I'm concerned. The subtext was that we are a lovey-dovey couple. It was great. I hope we enjoy true love for the rest of our lives."
After the April 9 election, Sa'ar once again became a Knesset member.
"During my time away from politics, I only visited the Knesset once: to hear US Vice President Mike Pence deliver an address. I was invited to many events in the Knesset, but I kept saying that I would only return once elected."
Q: You are aware of the claims that the Likud is no longer the party of Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir, right?
"People always find something to complain about. In fact, even when Likud was led by Begin and Shamir there were those who were not happy with their leadership. Why has no one asked what happened to Labor of the good-old-days? Why hasn't anyone asked what has happened to the national religious parties? In fact, comparatively speaking, Likud has maintained its identity more than any other party."
Q: Likud has come under fire during the last campaign when Netanyahu posed for that famous selfie with party officials, all of them men, and almost all of them were Ashkenazi.
"In retrospect, women should have been in the picture. But don't forget that it was just a selfie. "
Q: But there are only two women in the Likud's first 10 spots on its Knesset candidate list.
"I would have liked to see more women on our candidate list. There is a greater concentration of women further down in the list, that's why I look at the candidate list as a whole. Likud has powerful and dominant women. And unlike other parties, in the Likud women get elected through a primary race; they are not placed on the candidate list through some party mechanism. Other parties have handpicked candidates placed on certain spots based on their ethnic origin or gender. Our candidate list is the product of a party election; it cannot be engineered from the top down. It has proper representation for those who follow the ideological path of the Herut Movement that was the classic Likud party. Herut also had a diverse representation for its factions."
Q: Some on the Right lament that the Likud is no longer a right-wing party because it has not removed illegal Arab settlements in Judea and Samaria, because the situation in Gaza is still bad, and since the government has not taken advantage of the friendly ties with the Trump administration to boost Jewish settlements in Judea and Samaria.
"I don't agree with that analysis. The Likud is clearly a right-wing party. You can always criticize this or that step, but all parties in the outgoing coalition were collectively responsible for the decisions taken during this government's term," Sa'ar says. " Every party, including Habayit Hayehudi and Yisrael Beytenu and Shas, share responsibility for the government's conduct. Some would like to pin everything bad on Likud as if we are responsible for the bad parts, and the other parties are responsible for the good parts. That is just a great deal of hypocrisy."
Q: You were also critical of the government, going from one studio to the next and saying that after 500 rockets were fired on Israel, the current government should have done more.
"I didn't go from one studio to the next. I still have criticism regarding the policy on Gaza. I haven't changed my mind and I made it clear after the last two flare-ups that the terms of the ceasefires did not make Israel stronger. I think I had the right to express my dissent, because I was not part of the government, unlike various ministers who were currently sitting in the cabinet.
"Everyone knows who I am talking about. I am talking about those who launched a campaign against the government even while they were themselves participating in a cabinet meeting. When you are in the cabinet, you have collective responsibility. You are responsible for things that go beyond your ministry, even things that you vote against.
"Regarding Gaza, my view is that we will ultimately have to do what it takes to dismantle the terrorist infrastructure of Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad. I am worried that a terrorist state is being built within the Gaza Strip."
Q: Did you tell this to the prime minister?
"I have just become an MK. So apart from one opportunity, I didn't get to tell him this in the proper forum, but I keep saying these things. My mission is to express my views on key issues pertaining to our nation and to fight for them if necessary."
Q: There is a difference between saying this on the public airwaves and saying this in front of the prime minister.
"According to this theory, an elected official is not allowed to express his opinion on national security issues. This is not what I believe in, it is undemocratic and misguided.
"I was not appointed to the Likud. I was elected to the Likud. I was not elected with the support of the prime minister, I was elected despite his clear opposition to my candidacy. I presented clear views and I will continue to express them and fight for them, in a very dignified manner. There is an election coming up and there are electoral concerns, but when it comes to crucial national security matters, I will continue to speak without fear and will fight over them if necessary."
Q: How does Netanyahu view this conduct?
"I don't know. I believe that to a large extent he accepts this. I remember that back in the day, he himself was critical of an incumbent prime minister on national security issues. He spoke out."
Q: But you are the only Likud MK who voices criticism of Netanyahu.
"This is not a criticism of the prime minister. I don't express personal criticism, I respect him, but as a public servant I am duty-bound to say what I think."
Q: Why are other MK afraid of doing it?
"I often hear other Likud MKs and Likud ministers express a dissenting view and criticize Netanyahu. Some MKs and ministers say that targeted assassinations of terrorists should be resumed and oppose the government's policies vis-a-vis the Palestinians. What I say on Gaza is also what the chairman of the Foreign Affairs and Security Committee in the Knesset, Avi Dichter, says. But when Gideon Sa'ar says those things, even in the most respectful and dignified way, he will be attacked.
"So why can they say those things, but Gideon Sa'ar, who makes a clear and reasoned point without any personal attacks and without being in the cabinet can't? This is an attempt to deny me my right to speak. This is what being a public official means. If I acted any differently, I would have not been able to serve the public."
Q: So in the grand scheme of things, your stature grows when you criticize the prime minister. No?
"I am not a political pundit. After four and a half years outside of politics, without holding any office, and despite many people trying to prevent my comeback, most Likud members voted to have me placed high on the Knesset candidate list. These are the facts. I had nothing that I could buy the votes with, there were many obstacles on the way. This shows that Likud MKs appreciate my path. My path is a dignified one. I always keep in mind that I am here to serve not myself but an idea and a cause. I did not return to politics just for the heck of it. I had a very comfortable life outside of politics. I would have not come back to politics had I not had strong convictions and wanted to fight for them."
"I respect the prime minister regardless of his conduct toward me and sometimes even despite his conduct toward me."
Q: You used to be very close to the prime minister. You ran coalition talks on his behalf, you were the cabinet secretary. These are positions of trust. What happened to this relationship?
"I have known the prime minister for 30 years. I started working with him after he appointed me as the cabinet secretary more than 20 years ago. We had very close relations."
Q: Why has that changed? When did you become like a red rag to a bull?
"You will have to ask the prime minister. I respect him regardless of his conduct toward me and sometimes even despite his conduct toward me. My approach is that you have to respect the head of the party and the prime minister, and he has many things that he should be respected for. I can't tell you that we never had disagreements, even when I was a minister in his government. We had professional disagreements even though I was one of the ministers who gave backing to the prime minister in public."
Q: This is different from the Gideon Sa'ar of today.
"Looking back, perhaps I should have acted differently and not given my support to the prime minister on some occasions."
Q: What, for example?
"I don't want to get into it. There were times when I gave automatic support to the prime minister, and that was not right. Today I support him on everything except key national security matters in which I think I have to dissent and express my own views. These are not marginal issues."
Q: What did it feel like competing for a place in the Likud candidate list despite the opposition of the prime minister?
"This was my fifth primary race. Each time I got the public's support, but this time the chairman acted against me. This is rare. If you ask me if I think the prime minister acted in a manner that one would expect from a prime minister, the answer would be no. I don't think it would be appropriate for me to elaborate on this matter because we are in the midst of an election. But this is water under the bridge. I received 36,000 votes in the primary race."
Q: Did this flare-up with the prime minister boost your stature?
"I don't think so."
Q: Netanyahu warned prior to the April 9 election that you and the president would make sure that someone else gets to form a government. Did you and the president try to do that?
"I said this was a false accusation and I still say so. This is just a fairy tale. The prime minister said he heard about this so-called plan from others. Maybe they wanted to give him false information, but did he even check this out with me? No. And that's too bad. In any event, we are talking about a saga that was in the news about a year ago, and it had zero impact. There is no point in talking about this."
Q: Do you really think this saga didn't have an impact?
"My friends in Likud, who have a great appreciation for the prime minister, showed us that this had no impact on them."
Q: What do you think about the prime minister?
"He is doing a really good job on the diplomatic front. He has extraordinary capabilities in many areas, and he has managed to forge close bonds with world leaders, and this serves Israel's national interests.
"Israelis, including those who criticize the prime minister or are angry at him, should ask themselves: If the US peace plan is released tomorrow, who would they prefer to have at the helm? Netanyahu and the Likud or Blue and White leaders Benny Gantz and Yair Lapid, and Democratic Union leader Ehud Barak, all of whom have a problematic worldview? I would like turn to all of those who are angry at Netanyahu over various matters and say: Please do not punish the State of Israel. It is crucial that the Likud lead the new government."
Q: Describe your relations with the prime minister? How often do you meet?
"We met at the Likud headquarters several days ago, and we occasionally meet at the Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee. We are working together to advance the same cause: the Likud's victory in the election."
Q: Likud officials have come under fire for not lifting a finger when Netanyahu decided to call another early election.
"That is water under the bridge."
There are constant efforts to drive a wedge between various elements in the Likud, by people from outside the party. There is unity within the Likud and we are focused on the same goal. The goal is to have a Likud-led government led by Netanyahu.
Q: If Netanyahu won't be able to form a new government, can you envision a scenario in which Likud officials will try to replace him?
"There are constant efforts to drive a wedge between various elements in the Likud, by people from outside the party. Why is no one asking Blue and White the same question? I am not going to take part in this effort to drive a wedge between Likud members just before an election. There is no justification for this. There is unity within the Likud and we are focused on the same goal. The goal is to have a Likud-led government led by Netanyahu. Is that feasible? Yes."
Q: What do you make of finance minister and former Kulanu leader Moshe Kahlon's return to the Likud?
"I called on him to return to the party even before the April 9 election. He and others in Kulanu are originally from Likud. I was also in favor of Naftali Bennett and Ayelet Shaked (who ran as the leaders of the New Right) running as part of Likud."
Q: Can you say the same thing about Foreign Minister Yisrael Katz?
"I will always say something good. I will not speak ill of other people in the party, as some do."
Q: Are you referring to the interview in which Katz's wife attacked you and said you have no accomplishments?
"I never commented on this, and I am not going to comment on it now. It is not worthy of a comment. One of the former leaders of our party once said: I have many buddies in my party, but I only have friends in other parties."
Q: What do you think of the effort to have candidates in Likud pledge their allegiance to Netanyahu so that only he is the party's nominee for prime minister?
"I have no problem pledging support. This is basically a reiteration of what the Likud charter says. It says that the party's chairman is also the nominee for prime minister. Signing such a statement is signing something that is obvious. Why did this even come up? Because some people from outside Likud have tried to drive a wedge within the party."
Q: But a leak from a meeting with the prime minister showed that you were the only one to express this view.
"I don't know what the goal of the pledge was. But I was not bothered by it. What I say behind closed doors and in meetings is the same thing that I say in media interviews. In this day and age, we have to assume that anything you say in private will ultimately find its way to the general public. I know that my phone was placed outside the room."
Q: But ultimately what was leaked were your comments, not another minister's.
"Six or seven Likud MKs meet and at the end day only Gideon Sa'ar is in the news."
Q: Why?
"You have to answer that, not me."
Sa'ar was born in Tel Aviv. His mother was a high-school teacher and his father was a pediatrician who made aliyah from Argentina. During his military service in the Golani Brigade, he was injured but later returned to the brigade to complete his service. During his undergraduate studies, he majored in political science at Tel Aviv University and later became a journalist.
In 1993, he joined the newly created Channel 2 News as one of the legal correspondents.
He later studied law and clerked at the Tel Aviv State Attorney's Office, and between 1995 and 1997 worked for the attorney general.
Between 1997 and 1998 he worked on then State Attorney Edna Arbel's staff and later at the Tel Aviv State Attorney's Office.
In 1999, he became cabinet secretary during Netanyahu's first term. In 2001, he was once again appointed to that role, under then prime minister Ariel Sharon. Between 2003 and 2009, he was the Likud faction leader in the Knesset.
He later became education minister and interior minister. In 2014, he left politics but three years later announced his return.
Q: You underwent a 180-degree transformation. You used to be a DJ at Tel Aviv parties, and today you lead a religious lifestyle.
"This is just part of the stereotype. People find it difficult to understand a person that they cannot pigeonhole. If he is Tel Avivian, he must always subscribe to a certain set of values. People forget that 20% of Tel Aviv voters support Likud. I was a DJ because it was my hobby, not my profession. I like music a lot. I go to many music events."
Q: What do you do on Shabbat?
"I have kids, there is always something to do."
Q: Are you in favor of lifting restrictions on commercial activity on Shabbat so that grocery stores can remain open?
"There is a big difference between having entertainment venues open on Shabbat and having all stores open as usual. We must be careful not to turn Shabbat into just another weekday. Just like I would not tell someone what to do on their day off, I think it would be bad to get rid of the national day of rest."
Q: What do you think about abolishing the rabbinate?
"That would not serve any good purpose."
Q: What about separating religion and state?
"Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity. This is simply not feasible in Israel."
Q: You don't think you'll be in the cabinet?
"When you say, 'I want to be a minister' this does not send the right message to voters. First, let's win the election, and then we can worry about who gets what portfolio. I have also learned that in politics, what you want and what you get is very different. In 2009, I thought I would get the justice portfolio, but ultimately got the education portfolio, and I am glad I did. In 2013, I wanted to get the education portfolio again, but then I got the interior ministry. I am glad I got it, in retrospect."
Q: Are you concerned that because of bad blood between you and the prime minister that you will be denied a ministerial portfolio?
"First we have to win the election, and then the prime minister has to swear in a government, and only then I hope he will call me and ask, 'What would you like?' and I will tell him, in private."
Q: What do you think about the chaos over at Blue and White?
"Blue and White is not really a single political entity. It will disintegrate. They want to lead Israel, but they are not really offering anything new on the big policy questions.
"Gantz is not qualified to serve as prime minister. It is obvious that he doesn't have what it takes. I have respect toward him because he was the Israel Defense Forces chief of staff. In general, I try to respect my political rivals. They are not enemies. But it is obvious that he lacks the political skills, he lacks the experience and the qualifications for being prime minister."
Q: Would it be correct to label Blue and White as Left?
"They are trying to obscure their positions. They are investing heavily to fudge the issues. But occasionally their real views accidentally come to light. Ehud Barak [a leading candidate from the Democratic Union] has said he and Gantz share the same worldview. Some people on the list are different, but they are a very small minority. Their candidates are clearly on the Left."
Q: Blue and White signed a surplus vote agreement with Yisrael Beytenu
"This is a political statement. Usually, you sign a surplus vote agreement with a party that shares your ideological outlook. According to all polls, Likud and Blue and White are neck and neck, just like in the last election. The competition is over who gets to form the next government. Anyone who is considering voting for Yisrael Beytenu should take into account that their vote will actually go to Blue and White, and help it form a government."
Q: After Netanyahu clears the stage, will you run for the Likud chairmanship?
"Of course. I already said so in April 2017, when I announced my future run to lead this party and this country. I have not changed my mind. When I announced my intention, I also said that I was not in a hurry. Both parts of that statement are as true today as they were then."
