It's been a very tempestuous week for Rabbi Rafi Peretz. More than a week, actually. For several weeks, he's been getting pummeled by Israeli politics. Critical reports about decisions he has made as education minister, venomous articles about his level of religiosity, polls and pressure to leave his spot, and exhausting negotiations to form the United Right, which demanded that he make a number of concessions.
There were unpopular comments about "conversion therapy" for the LGBTQ community that kept the entire country busy.
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Peretz, a yeshiva head and educator, "found himself" in politics. The dark circles under his eyes seem to cry out, "What do I need this for?" The friendly smile from when he first started out in politics a few months ago is now running almost on auto-pilot. And he is being very, very careful about what he says.
In the past few weeks, Peretz, or as he is better known in religious Zionist circles, "Rabbi Rafi," has been at the epicenter of political events like former Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked's return to politics. Plenty of headlines have focused on the tension between the two. On Sunday, Peretz announced that he would be forgoing the top spot on a united list of right-wing parties. On Monday, his party and Shaked's agreed to make a joint run for the Knesset, with Shaked as No. 1.
'The talks were conducted in good spirit'
"I'm calm and at peace with what happened at the start of the week," Peretz tells Israel Hayom in his first interview after the unification was announced. "It was a special week, a week where we had to live up to our commitment to the public to form mergers. We stayed focused on responsibility toward the nation, and that's how I approached this week. When I realized that to save the right-wing government and strengthen religious Zionism, I had to step aside, I decided I would step aside."
Q: How hard were the negotiations? How far apart were you?
"There were a lot of differences, a lot of thought and discussion, [but] everything was handled in good spirit. I met with Ayelet and [former education minister] Naftali Bennett a few times prior to this week. We reached all kinds of watersheds, we realized that the only way to solve them was to have a marathon sit-down."
Q: For weeks, there was bad blood between you two. You were accused of not giving up your spot to Shaked, despite the polls [showing that she was more popular] and that you were the one holding up the merger.
"I was looking ahead. What was important to me was being part of a strong right-wing government under [Prime Minister Benjamin ] Netanyahu. It's important to me, and I understand that to make that happen we mustn't lose a single vote. There were a lot of negotiations for mergers. Gladly, it came to pass with the United Right."
Q: Were there moments when the negotiations were on the brink of blowing up?
"The negotiations were salvaged when I decided to give Ayelet the top spot. Later, we sat down together and achieved some very good things. We [Habayit Hayehudi] didn't give up our place on the list. We wanted five out of the top eight spots, and six places in the top 10, and that's what we got. I think that when we go to our voters, they'll see that it was a fair offer. Everyone had to pay a price. … It's the people of Israel who are benefiting, and that's the main thing, as far as I'm concerned. If I'd wanted to worry about myself, I'd have done things differently. Maybe even stayed at home," Peretz says, laughing.
Q: In effect, Habayit Hayehudi made two concessions – both on leading the joint list and on places on the list. You wanted the New Right [under Bennett and Shaked] to have only three out of the top 10 spots, and in the end, they got four.
"Even those four places came after lengthy discussions. I don't feel like we lost. I'm sure that unity is the winning card."
Q: There was a debate about recommending Netanyahu as prime minister and having him form the next government. You insisted that the agreement state in writing that he will be your only recommendation. They wanted to recommend "a right-wing candidate."
"That's right. I insisted we recommend Netanyahu as prime minister. That was a condition."
Q: Why?
"Because I think he does his work faithfully. I've had the privilege of seeing him up-close these past few months, and I see his work, his thinking. He does a lot for Israel in the world. He understands the issue of the Land of Israel, he won't evacuate settlements, and he will stand up to [US President] Trump. We'll need a prime minister who will take a strong stance like that."
Q: Why didn't they [the New Right] want to recommend him?
"Ask them. Ultimately, it wasn't unilateral. We all agreed and went with it."
Q: Some on the Right are speaking out against absolute support for Netanyahu. They say he's giving money to Hamas, evacuated [the settlement of] Amona, not evacuating Khan al-Amar. That he isn't exactly enacting your agenda.
"I never said he is the embodiment of everything I think, but politically, he's closest to my opinions. He's the most loyal to the Right, to the Land of Israel, to the values of Jewish tradition."
Q: During the negotiations, there was discussion about attacking Netanyahu in your campaign. You demanded that it not happen. Did you win?
"We won't attack him. In our previous campaign, and the current one, we don't denigrate others. Last time, we spoke a bit about Bennett and Shaked leaving Habayit Hayehudi, but other than that, we talk ourselves up, speak well of others, of the prime minister. We believe that's what a real campaign is."
Q: Shaked and Bennett have reason to worry. In recent years, Netanyahu sounded out [former Labor leader] Isaac Herzog as a possible coalition partner before reaching out to the religious Zionists. Aren't you concerned that Netanyahu might reach out to others this time, too?
"If we succeed in our mission to secure 61 MKs, we can build a government. I'm sure that the prime minister will see us as his natural partners and want to build the next government with us."
Q: And if you don't?
"They'll need to wrack their brains about what to do."
Q: Do you think a right-wing government is possible without Yisrael Beytenu leader Avigdor Lieberman?
Lieberman will lead to Disengagement II
"We've already been there. If we'd had one more seat, we'd have been there. Our base is stable at 61 MKS, without Lieberman. One of the goals of the merger was to get to 61 seats. The intention of the merger was not to secure the minimum possible – we want to bring a spirit of unity. A spirit of partnership, a spirit that will cause many different sectors to join us."
"The religious Zionist base is worth 15 seats. If we manage to bring in some traditional Jews, too, maybe it's 17. We'll be in a completely different position. We definitely believe that we can get there. Lieberman is up by four or five seats. Part of the issue is not to allow him to decide who forms the government, but to divert votes from him back to us. We are the only ones to the right of Netanyahu. Everyone can see us as their [political] home."
"As someone who was evicted from his home [in the 2005 disengagement from the Gaza Strip], I'm telling you that Lieberman will lead us to Disengagement II. We see the conference that President Trump organized. It's a welcome initiative, but if we have a left-wing government, the results for the settlements could be catastrophic."
Q: Maybe you're wrong. According to electoral forecasts, a joint run will bring you eight seats. If every right-wing party were to run alone, each one would get five. You'd be bigger.
"We might get five seats, or maybe two wouldn't make it past the minimum electoral threshold. You can't take chances. We're more in need of nine definite seats than 10 possible ones."
'I feel a lot of support'
Peretz, 63, lives in Holot Halutza in the western Negev. He is married to Michal, 60, and a father of 12 – the eldest of whom is 41, and the youngest is 15. He doesn't count his grandchildren for fear of the Evil Eye.
He was born to a traditional Moroccan family that in terms of religious observance was "partly here, partly there," as he puts it. He grew up in Kiryat Yovel in Jerusalem, was accepted to the prestigious yeshiva high school Netiv Meir, and graduated with major-generals Elazar Stern, Yair Naveh, and Prof. Yishai Bar. In his youth, he was an outstanding athlete. In 1973, at age 17, he became the national decathlon champion.
He served in the Israeli Air Force as a helicopter pilot and completed his military service at the rank of major. As a reservist, he trained young pilots. After being released from compulsory service, he studied at the Mercaz Harav yeshiva and at Yeshivat Hakotel in Jerusalem, where he was ordained as a rabbi. In 1992 he founded Otzem, a pre-military academy in Atzmona, which is considered one of the flagship pre-military programs.
On March 7, 2002, as the Second Intifada raged, a terrorist broke into Atzmona, entered the Otzem building, and murdered five of Peretz's students. Over the years, he lost another 10 to various military operations, including brothers Eliraz and Uriel Peretz (who are not related to him). Since then, he says, he has been in very close contact with their mother, activist and educator Miriam Peretz.
In June 2010, Peretz was invited to return to the military as chief IDF rabbi, and made headlines with a directive he issued on mixed-gender military service. The directive, which examined the appropriate integration of men and women in the military, came under criticism from both sides: rabbis argued that it wasn't stringent enough, while women's rights groups claimed he was excluding women.
Another major event of his term as IDF chief rabbi was the question of soldiers who were presumed killed in action during Operation Protective Edge in the summer of 2014. His role demanded that he declare the deaths of Lt. Hadar Goldin and Staff Sgt. Oron Shaul, and he was the one who gave the awful news to their families. Peretz says he is still in contact with Goldin's father, Simcha, as well as with the families of other missing soldiers.
A few months before the April 9 election for the 21st Knesset, after Shaked and Bennett left Habayit Hayehudi, Peretz answered a call to the colors to try and save the religious Zionist party, which polls showed failing to pass the minimum threshold. On election day, the party wound up with five seats, which led to him being appointed as education minister.
The public issue is greater than the personal. This merger is a merger until the election.
Q: Let's go back to the negotiations for a merger of the smaller right-wing parties. How difficult was it for you to give up your place to Shaked?
"It was hard, but not hard in the personal sense. I thought that the head of the religious Zionist party should be someone who came from there. But now we're opening up a new horizon of a united Right, in which we'll let the electorate win. The public issue is greater than the personal. This merger is a merger until the election. When I realized that to demonstrate responsibility toward the nation, this is what I needed to do - that's what I did."
Q: What happened that made you realize that after so many weeks of opposition?
"We learned our lesson in the last election – that there was a risk we wouldn't make it over the minimum threshold. Slowly, I began to understand the big picture from the polls, and from tests of popularity. We want to bring in another seat so the right-wing government will win, and that's what needed to be done."
Q: Three weeks ago, in an interview to Channel 12, you said that "seats aren't the main issue." Now it sounds like you're saying something different.
"I'm interested in seats, and I realized that we couldn't reach the number of seats [we needed] any other way. I'm concerned with responsibility toward the country."
Q: But the New Right didn't make it past the minimum threshold at all, unlike you. Why did you need to step aside? Did you feel pressure from the public?
"There wasn't pressure in the sense of a growing tide on the street. It was a true, deep, sense that we need to do everything possible so that a right-wing government can win. In the last election, those who split, lost, and those who united, won."
Q: Why do you think Ayelet Shaked is predicted to bring in more voters? Because she's a woman? Because she's secular?
"That's a question you should ask other people, maybe journalists. I tried to accept the data at face value. Not dig. Maybe one day I'll look into it."
Q: What did people around you say when you stepped aside?
"I feel a lot of support from those around me for the move and the merger. The public wanted unity."
I espouse devotion, faithfulness, Jewish tradition, love of the people and the land ... Secularists don't need to be afraid of us. The opposite – with Ayelet Shaked and other figures they can identify with, there is room for everyone."
Q: A lot of secular right-wingers say they have no one for whom to vote. Some don't want Netanyahu, but also don't want a religious-national religious party with people who talk about a state that is governed by Jewish law and conversion therapy for the LGBTQ community.
"Religious Zionism reaches all parts of society. I'm from the periphery, live near Gaza, everyone is my brother, either religious or secular. There is no such thing as 'national religious' in my life. … There's a large sector of the public who knows that we have a balanced, loving, religious approach and proudly fly our flags – the flags of the Torah, the Land of Israel, and the state of Israel."
Q: And what should a secular voter who doesn't connect to these values do?
"I won't hide them. These are what we believe in. Anyone they're good for is welcome, we'll embrace them. If they're not? That's fine, I can respect that. They can go elsewhere."
Q: A secular person doesn't connect to a state run by Jewish law.
"That's not something I believe in. I espouse devotion, faithfulness, Jewish tradition, love of the people and the land. I hope that in the next few months and years we can show that we truly love this nation. Believe in it. Secularists don't need to be afraid of us. The opposite – with Ayelet Shaked and other figures they can identify with, there is room for everyone."
Q: What will happen with your united list after the election?
"We don't plan to stay together. It's a 'technical bloc." Maybe for the coalition negotiations, but there is no intention of staying together after that."
Q: After the merger was announced, the Likud put out a strongly-worded message that it was a "fake" merger and the fact that you didn't bring in Otzma Yehudit was putting the right-wing government at risk and would lead to its downfall. What did you think about that?
"We made an effort. I personally made an enormous effort to bring Otzma Yehudit on board and ignore a lot of things that happened along the way, including the way they were speaking. Before the big merger I said, let's sit down and join together, take the 4th and 8th places on the list."
Q: Did Netanyahu promise you that if you didn't merge with the New Right, you would stay on as education minister?
"I don't remember him saying anything like that. In any case, in the upcoming negotiations, I'll ask to be education minister."
Q: How do you see the relations between Netanyahu and Ayelet Shaked?
"You need to ask them. I'm not their spokesperson. From what I've seen, when Shaked was in the government with him, she was a good justice minister. She did good work, brought in good judges and rabbinical court judges and helped move good laws forward."
Q: That's interesting, because the prime minister pressured you not to merge with her.
"There was no pressure like that. The prime minister and I talk a lot. He didn't say don't form a merger. That's incorrect."
Q: There was talk that you said yourself, or other religious Zionist rabbis said, that a woman can't serve as party leader.
"There's some confusion. I said that a religious Zionist party, like Habayit Hayehudi, should be led by someone who grew up in the religious Zionist community. A person who follows the commandments. Man or woman, it doesn't matter, the main thing is that they grew up in [the community] and understand religious Zionism. Ayelet Shaked is head of the United Right, which is a broader list, that's not restricted to the religious, and there's certainly no problem with that."
'Itsik Shmuli was embarrassing'
I ask Peretz to what extent he regrets entering politics. He takes a deep breath. "I didn't come from political circles. I came in knowing that I'd been given a mission – to try and raise religious Zionism to its natural place. That mission isn't complete. I want to finish it, and we'll do that in the next government. In the next few years, we'll try and make it back into the center of things."
Q: You were prominent in the religious world, a pilot in the reserves. You had a prestigious pre-military academy. When you go to sleep at night, do you ask yourself, 'What do I need this for?'
"I go to sleep late, and when I do, I fall asleep right away. I learned that if you're a soldier who is faithful to his path and his vision, you don't need to be afraid of a long road ahead."
Q: Does that mean you don't regret your remarks?
"The most important thing for me is to be able to look at myself in the mirror and ask if I'm being faithful to my values, my truth, to the mission I took upon myself. When the answer is yes, I'll keep going with all my strength. When I falter, I'll resign. I don't have any regrets."
Q: In the cabinet, you voted in favor of a plan to build hundreds of housing units for Palestinians in Area C.
"What is happening now in Area C when it comes to Palestinians taking over open land has to do with a lack of governance and a 'Wild West' situation. Israel can't abandon its rights to its last land. In a few years, Area C will be full of Palestinian buildings and we'll be left with a headline."
"The plan approved by the cabinet finally regulates construction there. The IDF and the Civil Administration will enforce the law, thereby protecting land for the state of Israel in the best way possible."
Q: Are you certain you will be given the education portfolio again?
"I'm certain that I'll ask for it again. As far as I'm concerned, I've been here at the ministry for 10 years."
Q: And if you don't get it? What will you ask for?
"Anything having to do with areas of Israeli industry. To build and develop the land … Building up the country is important to me."
Q: What have you learned from the six months in politics?
"That the mission to save Habayit Hayehudi in the election was a great success, and you don't need to be popular in the media to know that you're on the right path. I learned a great lesson from politics – that to step aside isn't considered losing, and that in the end, politics is a collection of people with good intentions who work on behalf of the people of Israel."
"Ayelet, Naftali, and Bezalel [Smotrich, leader of the National Union faction] are good people who are halfway there. We have a common goal, and we will be victorious. There is a party whose four leaders call themselves the 'cockpit.' [Blue and White] They can stay in the air. We're on the ground, from the north of Israel to the south."
It pains me that the political-media discourse doesn't listen and doesn't try to understand what is said.
Q: Let's discuss the controversy over your remarks on conversion therapy.
"Everyone who heard the interview knows very well what I said. Everything I say aims to be sensitive, gentle, to bring people closer. If someone comes to us and asks for help, we'll help them, we'll refer them to a professional. That's all I said. I mean it."
"There was an attempt at a lynch, a culture of hushing up other opinions – anything that carries a whiff of tradition or conservatism. The moment the headline appeared, no one went to look at the interview, because those who watched it understood clearly that I didn't mean the terrible things that people tried to stick to me."
"I'm against these treatments, and in favor of professional counseling for youth in distress who ask for help from their teachers. It pains me that the political-media discourse doesn't listen and doesn't try to understand what is said. Only two politicians called me to clarify what I said before responding. I'm keeping their names a secret, and I admire them deeply."
Q: Labor MK Itsik Shmuli accused you of creating the atmosphere that led to a stabbing outside of an LGBTQ youth center in Tel Aviv last Friday.
"The public spots cheap populism, even during an election. It's no coincidence that the Left hasn't been in power for years. Shmuli was dancing in the blood of the victim for the sake of petty politics. That's embarrassing."
Q: What have you learned from the scandal?
"That you need to exercise caution, not to provide a trigger for public criticism over something that has nothing to do with what actually happened."
Q: Why 'nothing to do with it'? You even apologized.
"I didn't apologize, I clarified. I said I was against conversion therapies in their aggressive form. I have nothing to do with that. I explained what I said, which was how I respond if a student comes to me and seeks advice on this matter. [I approach them] with an embrace, with acceptance, with support. If I see that there is reason to refer them to a professional – I do."
High school-age kids should go hiking around the country, volunteer where they can, and not fly off for all sorts of shady entertainment.
'Protests are welcome, vandalism and violence are not'
Q: How are you finding the Education Ministry?
"It's a wonderful, exciting place. We deal mainly with building the future of the people of Israel and the state of Israel. What the next generation will look like."
Q: If we judged based on recent events in Cyprus [in which a group of Israeli teens sexually humiliated a British tourist, who made false accusations of rape], it doesn't look great.
"That was a horrifying incident that should shake up the entire country. Moral guidelines have become rotten. And it doesn't matter that they were released. This was immoral behavior that should keep parents and teachers up at night. The fact that they treated the young woman like an object is something terrible. High school-age kids should go hiking around the country, volunteer where they can, and not fly off for all sorts of shady entertainment. I don't understand why parents allow their kids to travel to places like these. It corrupts the soul. Is there any lack of other places to vacation?"
Q: How do you see the recent wave of protests by Israelis of Ethiopian descent? Racism is a matter of education, too.
"Their protest comes from a place of pain. I understand it. There truly is a need to fix the issue at its roots. I know the community up close. They are people of action, simply wonderful; people who love the country and the state and are hurt at how they're treated. In the Education Ministry, we're doing a lot to fix the situation, enormous amounts of funds are being earmarked just for that. Just this week, the cabinet approved a budget for scholarships for an extra year of high school for Ethiopian Israeli students."
Q: What is your opinion of the violence that took place during the protests?
"Protests are legitimate and welcome, rioting on cars and breaking windows is vandalism and violence. That escalates things, and I oppose that. But again, I'm stressing that today the educational gaps are closing and there is more participation [by Ethiopian Israelis] in informal educational frameworks – after-school activities, youth movements, and young leadership. That's how we'll move toward change and equality."
